FORKNI-L
FORKNI-L Digest - 5 Aug 2002 to 6 Aug 2002 - Special issue (#2002-232)
Tue, 6 Aug 2002
There are 33 messages totalling 1039 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. The Passion Burns
2. question/challenge (15)
3. Rosebud
4. Need songs for CD mix
5. Citizen Kane and Lacroix
6. 1. Nick 2. LC's sculptor (5)
7. Let's think about Ger! (3)
8. Today's Birthday: August 6
9. Schanke's son? (2)
10. question
11. Website Update
12. movie question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:06:27 -0500
From: Kristin <kris1228@e.......>
Subject: The Passion Burns
Greetings,
I just revamped my Immortal Beloved page: "The Passion Burns."
Check out the new design and graphics by clicking the new banner on the main
page.
Hope you all like it!
Kristin
http://knightvision.4ever.cc
"When you only have eyes for the Knight..."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:29:05 -0400
From: janette 1228 <janette1228@h.......>
Subject: question/challenge
I was at the jadfe site earlier this week and i was looking at the
categories and thinking there was fiction for just about every pairing
--then i realized there wasn't a nick/schanke one. I talked to someone
offlist about it and she was like she noticed that too, and we discussed
that it is an odd idea to have them together--but has no one wrote a story
like that? I was also thinking that it'd make an interesting challenge --to
write more nick/schanke slash fiction stories.
Also how does everyone think Schanke would take finding out that Nick is a
vampire?
*goes back to lurking now*
~Sierra
--
http://www.amethystgifts.com
your online gift source
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:47:53 -0400
From: janette 1228 <janette1228@h.......>
Subject: Rosebud
That ep was not Jane Doe. It was trophy girl.
~Sierra
In a message dated 8/5/2002 8:41:46 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
StoneB@g....... writes:
>In "Jane Doe", Lacroix turns
>out to be the one with the username "rosebud" and the actor who plays the
>serial killer to whom Nick turns for help does an amazing impersonation of
>Orson Welles.
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:53:57 -0400
From: Amanda Berendt <debrabant@h.......>
Subject: Need songs for CD mix
Hey!
I am putting together a "Raven Mix CD" and I am looking for ideas of songs
to put on it. I want them all to have an FK/Raven feel to them. So far I
have all the songs from the soundtracks but I am drawing a blank on others.
I will need the title and singer so I can look them up. Thanks!
The more I get, the better it will be (maybe I'll make a volume 2 <g>)
-Amanda
"Peace over anger. Honor over hate. Strength over fear."
http://operacellar.tripod.com/phantomslair.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:53:05 -0700
From: Emily <emilymhanson@y.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
Er...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Schanke married to Myra with a daughter?
He'd be cheating on his wife, and I don't think that's in character for Schanke.
I think he would take the revelation well. There are quite a few fics dealing
with him finding out.
--- janette 1228 <janette1228@h.......> wrote:
I was also thinking that it'd make an interesting challenge --to
> write more nick/schanke slash fiction stories.
> Also how does everyone think Schanke would take finding out that Nick is a
> vampire?
=====
Emily M. Hanson
Homepage - http://www.starbase-eprime.us
My Web Graphics - http://www.galaxyofimages.us
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:59:21 -0700
From: "David J. Duncan" <dante0220@y.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
Hi Everyone:
For the record, Schanke's married to Myra and
their daughter's name is Jenny.
Thanks
David
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:26:34 +1200
From: Knightraven <kiwisun@i.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
> Er...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Schanke married to Myra with a
> daughter?
> He'd be cheating on his wife, and I don't think that's in character for
> Schanke.
hmm I dont think he would be the first man nearing middle age to become
bi-curious. But i guess the question is would his and Nick's relationship be
emotional enough to warrent a physical relationship?
I'm not so sure it would....however if it were developed within a fic I
could see Schanke meandering slightly away from his wife. But would he think
it were cheating? If it were with another woman, definately. And yes
technically it is cheating, but would he think so?
I think i can imagine him having a non-emotional romp with Lacroix (the
whole 'come to the darkside' ploy by LC<eg>) more than Nick, who i think
would be too emotionally close to as a platonic friend, but not close enough
for a relationship.
However, having said that..i rather did enjoy Elfin's Story 'A Slash of
Gold' regarding all three of them.
http://www.sundive.co.uk/fk.htm
Kylie.
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/knightraven
Raven Awards : http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sharkyl/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:27:42 -0400
From: Portia <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
I'm with the Unnamed Faction and the FoDs, but I've yet to be able to get
over my shock at the idea of the Unsuited Faction! "g"
Portia
----- Original Message -----
From: "janette 1228" <janette1228@h.......>
> write more nick/schanke slash fiction stories.
> ~Sierra
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:35:24 -0400
From: Debbie Clarke <dittany121@h.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
Much as I enjoy the fiction where Schanke either finds out or knows the
truth about Nick, It always struck me that in Close Call Schanke was very
willing and happy to be reasssured by LaCroix that Nick was not a
vampire . (Not that LaCroix really told him one way or the other) In
spite of everything Schanke was very fond of his " weird" partner and he
had found his notion that Nick might be a vampire upsetting and
disturbing especially when he thought about what that could entail.
Debbie
>From: janette 1228 <janette1228@h.......>
how does everyone think Schanke would take finding out that Nick is a
>vampire?
>~Sierra
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:49:54 -0400
From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
At 06:29 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, Sierra wrote:
>...has no one wrote [an adult] story [about a Nick/Schanke relationship]?
I remember some time ago reading a "missing scenes" story that put that
sort of spin on Schanke's time at Nick's place in PotM. I don't recall the
name or author, though...
Brenda F. Bell webwarren@e....... /nick TMana IM: n2kye
Arctophile, computer addict, TREKker, stealth photographer...
UA, PoCBS, FKPagan; Neon-Green GlowWorm
HugMistress of the Ger Bear Project http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/
Gerthering 3 Photos: http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/gertherng/
Visit the Fiendish Glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~webwarren/glow/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:58:25 EDT
From: Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: question/challenge
If someone wanted to pair Nick and Schanke, it COULD be done and even
realistically. One of my gay male friends tells me a lot of married men do
occasionally stray (however, even he stresses that is NOT "most" by any men).
Keep in mind, Ol' Libs 'ere h'iz the one wot knows Natalie luvs 'er
Screedypoo.<g>
Libs
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:53:14 -0500
From: Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject: Re: Citizen Kane and Lacroix
>Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 From: "B. Stone" <StoneB@g.......>
>
>....Lacroix turns out to be the one with the username "rosebud" and the
>actor who plays the serial killer ...does an amazing impersonation of
>Orson Welles. I think someone is trying to point out to us how much
>Citizen Kane and Lacroix are alike, how much the two feel deprived of
>love, and how controlling they can both be.
It's an intriguing idea. I do think "rosebud" was at least a play on
Citizen Kane, with people trying to figure out who or what "rosebud" is,
and then finding out at the end, and having the joke of having a name as
innocent as "rosebud" refer to LaCroix. The rest of the serial killer
stuff seemed to be "Silence of the Lambs," Forever Knight style, but one of
the things I always felt was that the personality or mannerisms of FK's
jailed serial killer were very unlike those of Hannibal Lector.
So maybe they _were_ referencing "Citizen Kane" in more ways than just the
"rosebud". As people keep saying, there are layers and layers in Forever
Knight.
Bring 'em back alive!
Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
Cousin of the Knight ~ N&NPacker
CotK Site -- http://lavender.fortunecity.com/evildead/879/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:22:42 -0700
From: Emily <emilymhanson@y.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
I could see it in an AU possibly, where Schanke never got married, or maybe if
he got divorced. But I don't think Nick would let Schanke cheat on Myra.
In the infamous confessional scene (one of my all-time faves btw), he pretty
much made it clear that he wasn't going to let Schanke cheat on Myra with Alma,
so it just doesn't make sense to me that Nick would allow it to happen while
Schanke was still married.
In addition, Nick seems to respect marriage and probably still views it as a
sacrament of sorts. Otherwise, why would he have married Alyssa as a vampire
and stayed so long with Janette? He could just as easily have whammied Alyssa
into staying with him anyway.
--- Libratsie@a....... wrote:
> If someone wanted to pair Nick and Schanke, it COULD be done and even
> realistically. One of my gay male friends tells me a lot of married men do
> occasionally stray (however, even he stresses that is NOT "most" by any men).
=====
Emily M. Hanson
Homepage - http://www.starbase-eprime.us
My Web Graphics - http://www.galaxyofimages.us
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:38:15 +1200
From: Knightraven <kiwisun@i.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
> made it clear that he wasn't going to let Schanke cheat on Myra with Alma,
> so it just doesn't make sense to me that Nick would allow it to happen while
> Schanke was still married.
But it isnt up to Nick to 'make' him not cheat....the potential was
certainly there with Schanke, though he obvioulsy loves his wife. But he is
but a man....:P and as for Nick..he could have rather had him for
himself.<eg>
Kylie
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/knightraven
Raven Awards : http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sharkyl/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 02:07:03 -0400
From: "S. Babbitt" <sbabbitt@b.......>
Subject: Re: 1. Nick 2. LC's sculptor
McLisa wrote:
>Actually 1228 is too early for a fixed surname when the surname only means "of
>Brabant." Brabant was a sovereign duchy in the 13th century, so "de Brabant"
>is a description rather than a surname in the modern sense.
So "Nicola" is probably his only given name? By comparison, most English
lords in this day and age have at least three "Christian" names before
their surnames (like Prince William, who, IIRC, is William Arthur Phillip
Louis); did gentry in the early 1200s usually have multiple given names, or
just the one? Also, were naming conventions different for males and
females? Would Fleur also be known as "de Brabant," or would she have some
other identifying description tacked on after her given name? And her son,
Andre, presumably would have a name that tied him to his father, not to
Nick's family, right?
>I have always wondered, given the oppulence in which Nick's family lived and
>the high-level diplomatic mission on which he served in Queen of Harps, if he
>was from a cadet branch of the ducal family.
um...would you mind explaining this in a bit more depth to those of us who
are ignorant? :-)
Looking forward to learning something!
--------------
Stephanie Babbitt (sbabbitt@b.......), Atlanta, GA
Vaquera (Because I Can), MadNatter, N&NPacker
Nobody Dies. Nobody Ever Died.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:33:49 -0400
From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Re: 1. Nick 2. LC's sculptor
At 02:07 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>So "Nicola" is probably his only given name?
Like as not...
>By comparison, most English
>lords in this day and age have at least three "Christian" names before
>their surnames (like Prince William, who, IIRC, is William Arthur Phillip
>Louis); did gentry in the early 1200s usually have multiple given names, or
>just the one?
From what I've seen on a couple of other lists, it may depend on *where*
you were, as well as *when*... though I suspect in general they had only a
single given name, preceded or followed by a byname (a descriptive "name"
like "John the tailor" or "Eric the Red"), or followed by a matronymic or
patronymic (mother's or father's name, or a name derived from said parent's
name -- such as Leif Ericsson, Andrew Johnson, Vladimir Ivanovich, etc.).
> >I have always wondered, given the oppulence in which Nick's family lived and
> >the high-level diplomatic mission on which he served in Queen of Harps,
> if he
> >was from a cadet branch of the ducal family.
On one level -- that of Brabant being a high-level territory in itself --
it makes sense. On another -- the cadet branch -- it doesn't. Wouldn't a
younger son be known by the name of one of his father's minor titles or
holdings? (In modern times, in the United Kingdom, Prince Charles known as
Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, etc.; Prince Andrew as Duke of York;
Prince Edward as Count Wessex...) Or would the oldest son be known by a
title known generally as the title of the heir to the duchy in the same way
that "Viscount Althorp" is the heir to "Earl Spencer" and "Prince of Wales"
is the heir to "Queen/King of England, Ireland, Scotland, etc.?
I would *think* that "Nicholas of/from Brabant" would either refer to the
eldest son (another breach of historical continuity... maybe from that same
unknown branch of the family which had a Nick look-alike at the Battle of
Hastings and a nonexistent Dauphin?), or to any Nicholas from Brabant who
traveled abroad (as opposed to Nicholas from Toronto or Nicholas from
Windsor or Nicholas from Vancouver or Nicholas from Montreal)...
>um...would you mind explaining this in a bit more depth to those of us who
>are ignorant? :-)
Cadet branch = descended from a younger son, as opposed to the oldest son,
who would have inherited his father's lands and titles. The oldest son
would have stayed home and learned to manage the estates he would inherit;
he would be married according to the conventions of the time and place
(probably a diplomatic marriage, arranged by both parties' parents); he
might also learn the politics of the court. In public school, we were
taught that the second (adult) son would be given to the Church to become a
monk or priest, and that the third (adult) son would be sent off to the
Crusades -- which is almost certainly an overgeneralization, as I suspect
that some of these sons would have been useful as spouses to daughters of
sonless nobility, and that there would be some displacement of younger sons
if the family could not afford sufficient donations to the Church for it to
take in and educate a younger son...
Brenda F. Bell webwarren@e....... /nick TMana IM: n2kye
Arctophile, computer addict, TREKker, stealth photographer...
UA, PoCBS, FKPagan; Neon-Green GlowWorm
HugMistress of the Ger Bear Project http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/
Gerthering 3 Photos: http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/gertherng/
Visit the Fiendish Glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~webwarren/glow/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:17:15 -0500
From: Sami Swan Thompson {Tsunami} <angels2@f.......>
Subject: Re: Let's think about Ger!
Greetings~
Can you believe it, I'm actually posting something again.
Alert the media. Seriously, it's not really just an excuse
to think about Ger. Okay, it is. But let's do it anyway.
Has anyone else has been speculating {I believe it's called
"wishful thinking"} about Ger as a replacement in recent
popular roles?
We all know Ger can perform any role that's written, so
let's have some fun with this!
Sami
*********
Sami Swan Thompson *SAVOR EVERY DAY* angels2@f.......
Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/samiswan/index.html
Scribblings: http://Stories.Com/authors/swanthompson
THERE'S A NEW VAMP IN TOWN - MEET HIS MAKER: http://www.zrem.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:25:52 -0700
From: Nathalie <kleinemaus@c.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
> For the record, Schanke's married to Myra and
> their daughter's name is Jenny.
You know, I was just wondering, in that one episode -- I forget what it's
called now, it's when Stonetree's best friend murders his wife's lover -- at
the end there's a picnic scene, and Schanke is talking to this little
dark-haired boy . . . is that Schanke's son? I figured it conceivably be
someone else's kid, the way Schanke seems to like kids, but . . . well, that
had just been on my mind and I was wondering if anyone on the list knew. . .
Cousin Nathalie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:38:44 -0700
From: Viv <viv11374@y.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
--- Debbie Clarke <dittany121@h.......> wrote:
SNIP
> truth about Nick, It always struck me that in Close Call
> Schanke was very willing and happy to be reasssured by
> LaCroix that Nick was not a vampire . (Not that LaCroix
> really told him one way or the other)
The person who introduced me to FK believes that Close Call ended
with Schanke knowing that Nick is a vampire. Of course, he also
thinks that Close Call was the last episode of the second season
(we saw it out of order, so he got confused).
So I have a question: what do you guys think Schanke knew when he
left LaCroix's studio that night?
=====
Viv
Don't annoy the crazy person
Life's a witch and then you fly
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:51:48 +0000
From: Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@a.......>
Subject: Re: Let's think about Ger!
--
nancykam@a.......
www.nancykam.com
Sami wrote:
> Has anyone else has been speculating {I believe it's called
> "wishful thinking"} about Ger as a replacement in recent
> popular roles?
Every time I see CSI, I imagine Ger playing Grissom. I think it's a great fit.
Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@a.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:54:53 +0000
From: Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@a.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
Nathalie wrote:
> someone else's kid, the way Schanke seems to like
> kids, but . . . well, that
> had just been on my mind and I was wondering if anyone
> on the list knew. . .
This is one of those inconsistencies in the series. On
the surface it would seem the kid's his, but later on we
learn he just has a daughter, Jenny. So I take this as
Schanke just acting as a dad for a little boy, sort of
like parents do at Little League games. I know the
parents in my neighborhood treated all us little kids
like members of the family---and weren't hesitant to
tell us what we should be doing!
Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@a.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:08:00 -0700
From: "by way of \"Nancy A. Taylor\" <nat1228@a.......>" <eowyn3@j.......>
Subject: Today's Birthday: August 6
Hi Y'all!
Today is the birthday of: Phylis
<Knightfilli> phylis_s_2000_2001@y.......
AND
Me! Terri Wadsworth eowyn3@j.......
You can send birthday greetings to Phylis and me at the above e-mail
addresses. Please NOT to the list!
People who share this birthday include:
Lucille Ball, TV/Movie/Stage Actress
Peter Bonerz, TV/Movie Actor, TV/Movie Director
Isaac Hayes, Soul Singer, Songwriter, Keyboardist, Music Producer
Significant events on this date:
1945, at 8:15 EDT, the United States B-29 Super Fortress called the
"Enola Gay" dropped a ten-foot long atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan. ( I
really don't like to include events like this but Aug. 6 was a very slow
news day and it is significant.)
1952, 50 years ago, MAD Magazine first published.
1981, Firefighters in Indianapolis returned from the scene of a false
alarm to find their own firehouse ablaze!
I hope you have a VERY Happy Birthday, Phylis!
If you would like to be added to the birthday announcements, please send
your name, birthdate (no year needed), and e-mail address to me PRIVATELY
at eowyn3@j....... and I'll be glad to add you.
Terri
eowyn3@j......., eowyn@w.......
GWDFC, G-IV & V Attendee, Knighties Listowner, TKD, FK X-Stitcher,
Proud Survivor of Fk-fic Wars 8-11, Keeper of the FK Birthday List
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:20:33 -0700
From: Emily <emilymhanson@y.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
I think he tried to convince himself LC was telling the truth, but later found
it inconsistent with everything he knew about Nick. After watching "For I Have
Sinned" again, I realized Schanke looks a little more suprised than usual when
Nick tells him he's going to spend the day in a church. I think Schanke had a
general hunch back then, but no real evidence to support it. I also think he
probably figured it was safer to just keep his mouth shut, and that's why he
never said anything. If he had been in season 3, we might have seen a revelation
then.
--- Viv <viv11374@y.......> wrote:
> So I have a question: what do you guys think Schanke knew when he
> left LaCroix's studio that night?
=====
Emily M. Hanson
Homepage - http://www.starbase-eprime.us
My Web Graphics - http://www.galaxyofimages.us
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:37:12 -0400
From: Emily Lacey <laceye@a.......>
Subject: Schanke's son?
>when Stonetree's best friend murders his wife's lover -- at
>the end there's a picnic scene, and Schanke is talking to this little
>dark-haired boy . . . is that Schanke's son?
I don't think it was Schanke's son, but it may have been Mr. Kapelos'
son. I noticed in the credits someone named George Kapelos was in the
show. Since it seems that a lot of the siblings and progeny of the
cast were included on an occasional episode, it isn't much of a
stretch to think that it might be his real son.
Does anyone know for sure?
--
Emily Lacey
laceye@a.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:39:54 -0700
From: Viv <viv11374@y.......>
Subject: question
This might be a very silly question, but what kind of movies do
you think LaCroix would watch?
It's something I've been wondering for a while now but I just
never got around to asking it.
=====
Viv
Don't annoy the crazy person
Life's a witch and then you fly
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:22:24 +0000
From: Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@a.......>
Subject: Re: Schanke's son?
Emily wrote:
> cast were included on an occasional episode, it isn't
> much of a stretch to think that it might be his real son.
> Does anyone know for sure?
George Kapelos is John's brother, not his son. He played
the technician that Schanke gives a hard time, and who
in return calls him "Officer Shanky."
Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@a.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:54:15 EDT
From: MRKKaye@a.......
Subject: Re: Let's think about Ger!
I seem to sense a detective theme here <g>. Okay, but I'd like to see Ger do
something a bit more comic for a change. Not that Tony Shaloub isn't
wonderful, but I think Ger as Detective Adrian Monk on the USA Series MONK
would be terrific. I think Ger's energy combined with the characters
obsessive compulsive habits of cleaning and touching things (the character
is constantly touching meters and walking path posts) while walking would be
a perfect fit.
And for anyone attending Stratford - try to see Leon Pownall (Dead of Knight)
performing in Bereav'd of Light which is being performed with The Fellini
Radio Plays. There are two roles in the Radio Plays of the Director's
assistants - they work as a team. I am not the only person who would like to
see these two parts done by Ger and Colm.
M. Kaye
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:20:29 -0700
From: Helena Handbag <momra1@l.......>
Subject: Website Update
It's shameless self-promotion time. <G>
New stories and links have been added!
visit Mom-Ra's new and improved Night Slash
http://www.geocities.com/mom_ra
Cheers,
Mom-Ra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:45:42 -0700
From: Helena Handbag <momra1@l.......>
Subject: Re: movie question
Viv wrote:
>what kind of movies do
>you think LaCroix would watch?
LOL!! Why, Technicolor MGM musicals from the 1950s, of course! (I'm kidding! I'm
kidding! Don't hurt me!)
I can think of lots of movies he'd probably *hate*, such as "Spartacus" or
"Ben-Hur". (I can just see him snorting in disgust at the historical
inaccuracies)
I imagine he likes dark, sensual, thrillers. Or Hitchcock movies, "Rope" being
his favorite. Or anything (except Ben-Hur) starring Ramon Novarro!<G>
This is a great question! How about Nick? What are his favorite movies? Or
Vachon's? Or Janette's?
Cheers,
Tamara la Mom-Ra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:46:28 -0400
From: Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Re: 1. Nick 2. LC's sculptor
On Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:33:49 -0400 Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......> wrote,
commenting on a reply to a post of mine (McLisa):
At 02:07 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>So "Nicola" is probably his only given name?
>Like as not...
For a man unlikely to have been born later than ca. 1200, yes, there would be
only one given name. Two names, initially the result of a custom of adding a
second name at confirmation, won't appear until the late 15th/early 16th c in
France. The first clear reference is a woman whose bishop made her do penance
for heresy after she did this with her son's name. The practice of bestowing
two names at baptism won't show up until about a little later, and will be
rare until the late 16th c.
Note that Nick comes from an area which is now in Belgium and is majority
Flemish-speaking. He would have been bi-lingual in French and Medieval
Netherlandic (Flemish as a separate language won't develop until a little
later.) He probably answered to both Nicolas ("Neecolah") and whatever the
Netherlandic form was. Most likely it was something like Nicklaus or
Nickolaus.
>in general they had only a
>single given name, preceded or followed by a byname (a descriptive "name"
Yes, exactly. At this early period, it's a literal description and the same
person will be called by more than one, depending on what the clerk thought
was sufficient to make it clear who was meant.
The classes from which knights usually came tended to be called "of the family
estate" or "son of so and so." If there was more than one estate, there might
be more than one such byname in use.
> >I have always wondered, given the oppulence in
>On one level -- that of Brabant being a high-level territory in itself --
>it makes sense.
I have to admit it's an attempt to smother questionable historicity in a
strong cheese sauce :).
>Wouldn't a younger son be known by the name of
>one of his father's minor titles or
>holdings? Or would the oldest son be known by a
>title known generally as the title of the heir
Not necessarily. Medieval practice was much looser than the present and varied
between countries just as it does today. The younger son might be called by a
minor holding if he'd been given it. Otherwise, he's either "of his father's
estate" or "son of whoever" or possibly a nickname. The heir to the duchy is
more likely to have been "Prince or Lord or whatever the title was for a son
of the sovereign plus his given name" of Brabant. Note that if Nick's father
was, say, the current Duke's brother or father, it's possible that he was
given no land of his own. The infamous King John of England had no lands of
his own as a prince, which is why he was called John Lackland.
What puzzles me about "of Brabant" is that a knight who was called that and
was not a lesser member of the ducal family would probably be from a family
too poor to have more than a small manor house and very few possessions.
Nick's mother and sister live in a castle which is luxurious by the standards
of the time, and own at least one illuminated manuscript other than a psalter
or book of hours/prayerbook. Nick can't have gotten called "of Brabant"
because his family didn't have lands.
>Cadet branch = descended from a younger son, as opposed to the oldest son,
>who would have inherited his father's lands and titles. The oldest son would
>have stayed home
He certainly should have, although of course if the family was important
enough, he might also appear at court. My best guess is that Nick had had an
older brother who died while Nick was absent, but before his and Fleur's
father did, without a child of his own.
>taught that the second (adult) son would be given to the Church to become a
>monk or priest,
Usually true, although of course sometimes an eldest would have a religious
vocation or such a strong inclination to the military that he would follow
another path.
>and that the third (adult) son would be sent off
>to the Crusades -- which is almost certainly an
>overgeneralization, as I suspect
Crusades probably would be an overgeneralization, yes. Most likely he'd end up
as a knight in his overlord's permanent service or fighting as a mercenary in
various wars for bounty.
Yes, some one manage to marry heiresses or women whose father's could afford
to dower them well. A few very lucky ones would manage to make their fortunes
as knights.
McLisa
mclisa@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:51:29 -0400
From: Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Re: question/challenge
Brenda Bell writes:
>I remember some time ago reading a "missing scenes" story that put that
>sort of spin on Schanke's time at Nick's place in PotM.
Nigel told a con that a scene was actually shot for PotM in which LaCroix
drops in while Schanke is staying with Nick. LC pretends to think that N & S
are now a couple.
Oh, how I wish we could get hold of it!
McL
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:03:27 -0500
From: "Carla M." <copper@m.......>
Subject: Re: 1. Nick 2. LC's sculptor
Lisa McDavid wrote:
>
>What puzzles me about "of Brabant" is that a knight ... was not a lesser member
>of the ducal family would probably be ... too poor to have more than a small
>manor house and very few possessions.
>Nick's mother and sister live in a castle which is luxurious by the standards
>of the time.
>
Oh, let's face it -- some of us on the list know more about medeival
history and provenance than the writers did. :-) (And aren't we glad
they do so they can answer all these questions?)
Look at it this way -- most of the writers probably worked with the
"Cliff Notes of the Medeival Ages,", whereas had they consulted McLisa,
she works from the Oxford Unabridged and Complete Medeival Reference.
ListMommy knows all, sees all, and tells all when asked.
-Carla
copper@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:10:10 -0400
From: Debbie Clarke <dittany121@h.......>
Subject: Re: 1. Nick 2. LC's sculptor
Nick's name would be spelt Nicolas de Brabant and probably pronounced
Nicola that is assuming medieval French pronounced it the same way as we do
now.
De Brabant means literally as everyone has said either of or from Brabant
as everyone knows family names originated as descriptions. Edwin the
priest. Osmund the small. became in time Edwin Priest and Osmund Small.
This was already starting to occur in England at the time of William the
conqueror.
Therefore I think it is safe to assume that by the 13th century Nick's
last name was definitely de Brabant. That indicates to me he was a
member or connected in some way to the ruling family of Brabant.
From LaCroix's and Nick's brief visit it is fairly apparent Nick's family
were quite very well to do. Fleur was walking around with a book
leading to another interesting question could she read?
As Nick's lack of middle name. I don't think you can read very much into
that. Perhaps the question one should ask is whether people like Richard
cour de lion or Elinor of Aquitaine had a middle name. If they did does
anyone know what it was? Having dabbled in genealogy I know for a fact
that Middle names with a few exceptions were not commonly used by the
general public until the beginning of the 19th century.
Occasionally If the family was important enough (estates etc) there were
situations where a husband took his wife's family name or joined her name
to his as a means of keeping her family name alive. this occurred when
there were no male heirs to an estate.
Debbie
------------------------------
End of FORKNI-L Digest - 5 Aug 2002 to 6 Aug 2002 - Special issue (#2002-232)
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Parchment background created by Melissa Snell and may be found at http://historymedren.about.com/
