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FKSPOILR

Logfile LOG9606 Part 3

June 1-June 2, 1996

File: "FKSPOILR LOG9606" Part 3

	TOPICS:
	SPOILERS: All, N&N 1/2  (2)
	SPOILERS: All, N&N 2/2
	Spoiler: LK - virtual season (continuity)
	SPoiler: LK and virtual season/Format?
	SPOILER: AtA, LK -- Tracy  (3)
	SPOILERS - YKYBWTMFK.....
	N&N in STF  (2)
	Help!  (2)
	Spoiler Last Knight
	SPOILER: LK, Distortions
	N&N in LAST KNIGHT
	SPOILER: GVP
	SPOILER: LK - Nat's Fear & Actors' Opinions
	Urs and LaCroix (AtA, HF spoilers)

=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Jun 1996 22:41:33 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      SPOILERS: All, N&N 1/2

(Sugary fuzzies, anyone?)

In the face of a fair challenge, I am altering my previous position.  I am
not crossing all the way over to enemy lines, but I think I have found an
eminently defensible position in the center of the field.

Nick loves Natalie as his best friend.  He has throughout the series.  He
sets her on a pedestal as his icon of humanity, and loves that as well.
However, romantic feelings toward her as a woman did not begin to surface
with any regularity until the second third of third season, and they never
rose to a level that can truly be called being "in love."

They might have, given time.  They might have, given a crisis (which is
what is behind LK).  They might have, given an appropriate nudge in any of
a hundred places.  That is what we do in fanfic, but TPTB never got around
to doing it on screen.

In the past week, I have rewatched every episode I own that might shed
light on Nick's feelings for Natalie.  I watched most of OtL, BMV, MBIAV,
LNMTA, NiQ, HF and LK.  And then I watched parts of StF, The Fix, PotM,
AMPH, C&C, ND and CL.  I've copied down dialogue and counted pecks on the
cheek.  I have concluded that while Ger started playing Nick as if he were
in love with Natalie near the end of the filming for second season, the
plots and dialogue never quite backed him up.  I wish they had.

Now, if we have learned anything from this particular discussion, it is
that we all have different interpretations of love -- romantic or
otherwise.  And if we know anything from simply being on list, it is that
we all have very different interpretations of Nick.

I'm a Knightie.  For me, that means that I believe in Nick's quest.  I
believe that his desire for mortality is righteous and heroic, and that
the quest is central to his character.  I interpret backsliding as
precisely that: backsliding.  And third season has been the season of
backsliding, all the way down, in a horrible spiral, to the pit of doom
that is LK.

However, third season has also been the season of Nick's love for Natalie.
If you have only seen third season, you naturally assume that Nick is in
love with Nat.  After all, a "true love" is a normal feature in this kind
of show, and no one else fills the bill.  Tracy is obviously out, and not
only was Janette a one-shot, the romance was carefully drained from their
interaction.  Less cynically, it is there in how Ger plays Nick.  It is
there in the way Nick leans in to kiss Natalie, stroking her shoulder, at
the end of LNMTA.  It is there in his triumph and restraint in SoB.  It is
there in Nick's pain at the end of HF, the forgiveness at the end of FI,
the power of the revelation in Francesca, and most especially in Nick's
tender expression before he vamps out in LK.

In third season, if you want to find indications that Nick loves Nat, they
are all around.

However, third season is part of the larger whole.  It should not be taken
in isolation.  It is only too clear that in the first season, Nick is not
in love with Natalie.  He does, interestingly, touch her more and stand
closer to her than in either season following, and within canon that is
best explained, contradictorily, by him moving closer to her and to human
norms; he comes to know that the gestures are not meaningless.

OtL is the challenge in first season, and though the idea of a romantic
relationship with Natalie obviously runs through Nick's mind in OtL, he
clearly decides against it.  If this episode is taken alone, his decision
could be interpreted as a denial of his own love in favor of what is best
for her, but in the context of that season, it is illogical to suppose
that Nick harbors romantic feelings for Natalie, as he bounces from neck
of the week to neck of the week.

To be fair, however, he is not "in love" with Janette in the first season,
either.  And in second season, he is only as close to being "in love" with
Janette as he is to being "in love" with Natalie in the third, though they
take different forms.

(to be continued)

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
"You revere all that is mortal, all that is human.  If you really loved
her, you would never take that from her.  You would rather see her die."
                                        --- LC, in BMV
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Jun 1996 22:48:30 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      SPOILERS: All, N&N 2/2

(continued from part one; second helping of sugary fuzzies, anyone?)

In second season, BMV is the pivotal point.  (Actually, BMV is the pivotal
point of a lot of things, but I'll go play Fleur-Booster and Light Cousin
some other time.) My interpretation of Nick does not allow me to ascribe
his "the way we feel" comment and kisses to simple lust, mainly because he
knows better than to give in to lust with a mortal, but also because I
think he values Natalie more highly than that.

Therefore, I think that Nick was sincere in his approach, that the seeds
planted in OtL tried to sprout in BMV.  However, even though Nick lied to
LC when he said he was only "humoring" Nat, LC sensed that Nick was really
humoring *himself*, playing at being in love with this mortal who actually
is dear to him, but not really in that way.  Nick never intended to bring
Nat across; Nick was bluffing LC as far as that went; LC realized that
Nick was also bluffing himself, or he wouldn't have called him on his
"hypocrisy."

However, BMV on its own is still ambiguous.  It is only in the context of
the entire season that it is clearly an aberration.  Behavior afterward
could possibly be explained by LC's threat, but what about behavior
before?  I don't know of any romantic N&N moments in the first half of
second season, but I do know that Emily Weiss, in STF, is one of only
three people Nick has ever used the word "love" in relation to (the others
are Janette, in PotM, and Alyssa, in DoN).

It is in third season that things really get confusing.  Blackwing is like
a first season episode, but then there is MBIAV (which features, btw, a
truly awful Nightcrawler monologue.  Ptooy!  How could they put those
words in LC's mouth?).  Everything would be easy if we just knew what was
in that card, but we don't.  We have to assume from Nat's earlier
ultimatum and subsequent behavior, however, that it said something which
let her believe Nick loved her: "I saw how much you cared.  I just needed
you to say it."

However, "cared" is probably exactly what he did say.  "I don't think you
will ever understand how much I care" was his line in both MBIAV and OtL.
But he cannot be deliberately manipulating her, as she fears in MBIAV, and
as he claims to LC in BMV, because he says, "Because you're wrong, that's
why!  I'm not using you!  I wish I could prove that to you, but I don't
know how, all right?"  I'm willing to take him at his word;  he wouldn't
lie to Nat about something like this.

The most romantic N&N moment in third season (NiQ doesn't count; he has
amnesia; and, yes, that's still my favorite ep) is in LNMTA, of all
things.  And it is entirely in the way Ger presents it.  Nick says,
huskily, "Everything," then, as Nat turns to go, he blocks the door with
one hand and reaches up to stroke her shoulder with the other.  "I like
the whole package just the way it is," he says, and leans in for a kiss,
sighing when she ducks away.

That is pretty much as good as it gets.  And it is on the right track.
Nick is moving toward being in love with Natalie.  But he never gets
there.  Immediately after LNMTA, he loses his memory, gets possessed by a
demon, gets terminally ill, has to speak to his dead wife whom he
unintentionally killed, nearly gets addicted to a VR game, and then
chooses to bring Janette back across rather than watch her die.  Is it any
wonder he and Nat haven't gotten closer this year?  They did their level
best, but the little interlude from AA to Francesca, which did culminate
in that revelation in the morgue, was abruptly halted by the events of AtA
and LK.  They simply ran out of time.

Given all of the above, this is my new position.  Nick loves Natalie as
his dearest friend, but he was never actually "in love" with her in the
first two seasons, and though he was moving toward it in the third season,
and believed he was in LK, that was mainly a product of the emotional
trauma of so may horrible losses in so short a time.

On Fri, 24 May 1996, Jane (and Cynthia) wrote:
> Okay, so he apologized to Janette and that makes it okay for him to use
> her?  Not in my book.

Nor in mine.  I meant to imply that if he thought he had used Natalie, he
would have apologized to her, too.  His guilt would compel him to.

> It seems to me that
> the tendency to manipulate other people is an inherent part of Nick....

When Nick manipulates people, it is almost always because he thinks that
it will serve some greater purpose.  Yes, he is a great one for making
life decisions for others, but he would know that playing with Natalie's
feelings serves no purpose, and in MBIAV she told him that he was hurting
her.  Therefore, at least after this point, I believe Nick's romantic
gestures must have been sincere.

> In BMV, Nick is trying to persuade LaCroix not to kill Natalie.  Nick is
> fighting for his best friend's life.  So, he overdoes it and slurps all
> over her.  If Nick really loved Natalie, wouldn't he be gentler, more
> romantic?

Not necessarily.  If he was gentler and more romantic -- more Nick-like
-- then I might have thought that he was serious about bringing her across.

> From the very beginning in Dark Knight, Natalie has consistently expressed
> her distaste for vampirism.  The only exceptions are I Will Repay and A
> More Permanent Hell.

Actually, I think Fallen Idols is also an exception, considering her
willingness to use vampire blood, and someone building a theory of Nat's
acceptance of vampirism could also point to Fever and LK.

> If Nick loved Natalie absolutely, without doubt or reservation, he would
> not hesitate to jump at a sure cure for his vampirism.  The very fact that
> he is concerned that attempting this cure would result in Natalie's death
> indicates to me that he does not love Nat enough and he knows it.

Actually, he may have been remembering then what the two of them
apparently blocked out in LK, that it took Robert's *death* to bring
Janette back across.

Does that cover everything?  :) Good.  Sorry for subjecting you all to
such a long piece, but I really have given it a lot of thought.  Now that
I've dealt with it, I should finally be able to finish my theory of LK. In
the meantime, I've got a shiny new tape of never-seen first-season
episodes to pop in the VCR....

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
Knightie * Light Cousin * Fleur-Booster * (Im)Mortal Beloved *
Fuzzy N&Ner * Serial Natpacker * Ravenette of the New Order * Pax FK
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 04:12:47 -0400
From:         Deborah Sandine <DebSandine@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: LK - virtual season (continuity)

In a message regarding continuity, Wicked Cousin Tippi wrote:

>This is the way I look at it:  If there were going to be a fourth and fifth
>and even sixth *real* season of FK, I truly believe it would have continued
>exactly on the same course.  Nick trying to become mortal, Natalie trying to
>help him, LC trying to stop him on occasion.  If FK had continued on in
>so-called real life, I believe, logically, that everyone would be doing
>exactly what they'd been doing up until LK.

The only problem with this line of thinking, for me, is thatI believe things
could _not_ have continued on the same indefinitely. Reese would eventually
get suspicious, someone would finally figure out that Nick's speed in
catching bad guys is more than just unusual, Nat would get hauled before the
medical boards for covering up for Nick re drained dead bodies... it's Nick's
pattern to change identities and move on every few years, so people don't get
too suspicious of him.

On the other hand, not to contradict myself, Nick has only been in Toronto
seven years (by my reckoning), and he has only been at that police department
for two years, so maybe he could stay one or two more years. But someone
would have to come up with a sound reason why Nick would choose to stay, when
it would be much safer to leave. Maybe Nat insists on staying for some
reason, and he won't leave her? LaCroix really did seem set on leaving,
though. Pity San Francisco is occupied by another group -- most people have
seen it enough in the media to have a fair idea of the landscape, I think. Or
am I (as a native Bay Area resident) being geocentric?

Also, for the sake of maintaining interest in the story, I like characters to
grow and develop and have new problems. I don't know that I want them to
continue on exactly the same course. I would rather have them deal somehow
with the repercussions of AtA and LK (preferably without dying, admittedly).


Deborah
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 04:42:08 -0400
From:         Ray Heuer <RayHeuer@a.......>
Subject:      Re: SPoiler: LK and virtual season/Format?

     The talk about bringing Schanke back as Captain rang a bell in the dim
recesses of my mind.

     Nick, Tracy, and, if memory serves, Schanke, are always addressed as
"Detective".  Now, in NYC (and many other places), there are at least two
grades between Dectective and Captain, Detective Sergeant and Lieutenant of
Dectectives.  I've always wondered where the Sergeants and Lietenants are,
but rationalized that perhaps Toronto P. D. doesn't work that way.
     Those who want to bounce Reese have a point, but those who want to keep
him could simply bring back Schanke as a Lieutenant, or even bring back
Stonetree as Captain and bust Reese down to Lieutenant, with Schanke as
Lieutenant or Sergeant.
      Just to use another great cop show, "Hill Street Blues" as an example,
Captain Furillo had 3 Lieutenants working in the squadroom, Ray Gaetano,
Howard Hunter, and Henry Goldblum (actually, Henry was a Sergeant for the
first season).
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 05:17:49 -0500
From:         Sandra Gray <TMP_HARKINS@d.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: AtA, LK -- Tracy

I wrote:
>Or what if she caught vampirism from kissing Vachon in Fever and it
>just took until LK for it to start defeating her body's defenses?

I was just half-joking here.  The "anti-virus" that infected the
vampires was powerful enough to "kill" them.  The vampire immune
system couldn't handle it.  So couldn't it be possible that the
altered "whatever causes FK vampirism" would have a different effect
on a mortal coming into contact with it?  Nick's "vamp virus" or
whatever was affected by the litovuterine in The Fix, remember.

Maybe what the "anti-virus" was doing was altering the ability to
take in nourishment but *strengthening* the vampire element in them.
They were starving, but could have been more "vampire contagious"
(contact less than a bite or vampire blood might infect someone).
The effect might have been as if a vampire had been "brought over"
again (thus the "first hunger" stuff and *maybe* the appearance of
death in those far gone with the disease).

I mean, what *would* be the effect on a vampire of being "brought
over" again?

--Sandra Gray, forever Knightie
--tmp_harkins@d.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:36:27 -0500
From:         Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILERS: All, N&N 1/2

At 10:41 PM 6/1/96 -0700, Amy R. wrote:

>However, romantic feelings toward her as a woman did not begin to surface
>with any regularity until the second third of third season, and they never
>rose to a level that can truly be called being "in love."
>They might have, given time.

Did you watch the tag in StF?  I believe that aired early in second season.
Natalie is leaving.  Nick has his back to her.  Their are tears in his eyes,
he says, "I wish...", and his eyes move just slightly, as Natalie leaves.
I saw that as him wishing that he could have a romantic relationship with
Natalie.  He isn't going to say it, because he knows he can't do it.  The
encounter with Emily Weiss proved it to him once again.

That's a very small bit, and obviously, very open to interpretation.
I don't know that it changes your theory in any case.

>Nick's tender expression before he vamps out in LK.

I really need to go back and watch that part of the episode again, if I can
stand it.  I'm just not sure that was such a tender expression.  I think
Nick did what he did in Last Knight in an attempt to assuage his pain and
guilt, not out of love.  This doesn't mean he doesn't love Natalie; I
think he does love Natalie.  Even people who love each other sometimes
make love for the wrong reason.

I don't think Last Knight was about love.  A large part of it was about
three people (Nick, Natalie, and LaCroix), who could only see their own
needs or their own pain and disregarded the needs or feelings of others.
I'm not saying that's typical of either Nick or Natalie (LaCroix is a
different question), but in this episode they had both had traumatic things
happen to them at the same time and just weren't really there for each
other.

Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
N&NPacker
Cousin of the Knight
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:59:27 -0500
From:         MS LYNNE R ACKERMAN <GNBV32C@p.......>
Subject:      SPOILERS - YKYBWTMFK.....

Can't remember if this episode is still on spoiler protection or not,
so to be safe I'm posting it here.  Also can't remember the name of
the episode (and I don't care, so please don't e-mail me), but it's
the one with the ghosts in the haunted house.

YKYBWTMFK...and that Truth is stranger than Fiction...when:

The headline in the Toronto paper (Toronto Star, May 29/96) says
"Mystery of spies lurking in Metro", and the story talks about two
suspected *Russian* spies who were living here, named Laurie and Ian
Lambert, who have been arrested...and you think, "ah, so >that's< why
Natalie lived with her grandmother!"

A message from Lynne Ackerman in Toronto (or, as we like to call it,
"Hollywood North"!)    Via Internet:  gnbv32c@p....... (preferred
address) or be028@t.......
           *** Help save Forever Knight!  Ask me how. ***
http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR/SaveForeverKnight.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:09:24 -0500
From:         TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......>
Subject:      N&N in STF

Margie wrote on the spoiler list but I moved it here:

>Did you watch the tag in StF?  <snip> Nick has his back to her.  Their are
tears in his eyes,
>he says, "I wish...", and his eyes move just slightly, as Natalie leaves.
>I saw that as him wishing that he could have a romantic relationship with
>Natalie.

I guess it really just depends on what faction you belong to, because I
watched that ep again last night and I didn't see any of those things. ;)  I
watched it because I thought it would show some loving feelings from Nick
toward Nat, but I was surprised to find the opposite.  When he fantasizes
while reading Emily's book, he imagines Emily as the heroine.  When *Nat*
reads the book, she fantasizes about Nick.

I kept waiting for him to glance back at Nat as she was leaving.  I was
screaming at the TV.  "Look at her!  Tell her not to go!  AGH!"  She looks
at him not once but twice as she's leaving.  Nat even encourages him to
pursue his feelings, a little wistfully, for Emily.  It's as if she knows
(as painful as that knowledge is) that Nick doesn't love *her* but that he
can love *somebody*.  She loves him enough to make the sacrifice for his
happiness.  Egads, Nick even calls Emily "my love"!!

So I've now changed my original statement of "Nick and Nat don't love each
other".  I now believe Nat loved Nick, but that the feelings just weren't
returned on anywhere near the same level.

Feeling slight Natpacker tendencies,
Wicked Cousin Tippi, dollar bill wrangler of the Thong Throng!
*Founding Member of the Unnamed Faction*Voyeur of the Menage LaCroix*
"Happiness is a warm Nicholas." - LaCroix
Wickedness Site!  http://www.netcom.com/~tippinb/wicked.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:16:58 -0400
From:         "J.A. Stafford" <KnightGal@a.......>
Subject:      Help!

As some people are on FKSPOILR and not on FORKNI-L, I wanted to post the
message which I sent out on FORKNI-L, to wit:  I am writing a piece of
fiction centred around LaCroix and would like to get input on what you
believe are some things LaCroix would never do!  I think I've got a handle on
this character, but it never hurts to have others' opinions upon which to
reflect.

Your comments are much appreciated.
Cousin J
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:33:03 -0400
From:         Judith Freudenthal <JudithF955@a.......>
Subject:      Spoiler Last Knight

I know this is late but most of what I was going to say has already been
said.

I thought that in the final scenes in the loft Natalie was acting very much
like she did in AMPH.  She was desperate and not herself.  Nick should have
detected this and reacted like he did in AMPH, with one exception, this time
he should explain to her why he's turning her down.

Nick was out of character in how fast he gave in.  He shoud've seen she
wasn't herself and not given in.

I hated the biting scene.  Where was the love scene?  I know that if they
were going to do it (anywhere other than this ep) that there would have been
a love scene more like Night in Question.  What they gave us was Nick having
lunch, not a love scene!  Both deserved much better (and so did we)!!

I still think Nick's decision not to tell Tracy his secret was the right one.
 One slip and he would have had to move on or kill her.  He would have been
unable to kill Tracy or bring her across.

Nick should have told Natalie that he could not bring her across because: he
loved her, he couldn't risk her (either one would have worked, especially the
first one) or he could've added - LC never taught me how to properly bring
across anyone.  Nat would have understood.

Lack of open, honest communication is their biggest obstacle.  I think Nick
has more of a problem with it than Nat, but not by much.  I think she's more
willing to talk about it than he is.

Nick does pretty well until it comes to females and having to relate to them,
especially when it is a very close friendship or  love.  Love really turns
him totally clewless.  (But then again is he so different from other men?)

I had no serious problems with the rest of the episode.  I do deny the
existence of the last 15 minutes or so of LK.

Judy
JudithF955@a.......
Natpacker, Knightie and N&Npacker
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:49:29 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      SPOILER: LK, Distortions

I have a new possibility to add to the list of reasons for the distorted
pov of LC through most of LK.  It isn't, perhaps, as strong a possibility
as 1) Nat's pov as she lays dying, 2) Nick's pov after he's been staked,
or 3) Nick's pov through his tears before he hands over the stake, but it
does have some potential.

It is still awkward to place LC's speech in time.  The two best
possibilities are that the speech was delivered either just before he
accuses Nick of thinking he's the devil, or just after he stakes Nick.  It
finally occurred to me that the speech need not have occurred at all -- the
speech we saw could have been the extra ramifications of the non-distorted
part, delivered to Nick across their link.

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
** Knightie *** Light Cousin *** Fleur-Booster **
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 18:48:45 -0500
From:         Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject:      Re: N&N in STF

About the tag in StF,
TippiNB wrote:

>I kept waiting for him to glance back at Nat as she was leaving.  I was
>screaming at the TV.  "Look at her!  Tell her not to go!  AGH!"

So did I, but I understand why he didn't.

Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
N&NPacker
Cousin of the Knight
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 21:44:59 -0400
From:         esalmas <esalmas@g.......>
Subject:      Re: N&N in LAST KNIGHT

At 02:09 PM 6/2/96 -0500, Tippi wrote:

>I now believe Nat loved Nick, but that the feelings just weren't
>returned on anywhere near the same level.

Even Nat realizes that -- she says to him "You just have to love me as much
as I love you" or words to that effect in Last Knight.

And in this season -- why is she the one that seems to shy away from
affection whenever Nick tried to kiss her. In the tag to the episode where
her heart is almost cut out - Nick is definitely moving in for a smooch and
she ducks out of the way. What gives?


Eileen Salmas
esalmas@g.......
"The truth is out there. It's just not in my jurisdiction."
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 21:45:16 -0400
From:         esalmas <esalmas@g.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: AtA, LK -- Tracy

At 05:17 AM 6/2/96 -0500, regarding the vampire anti-virus you wrote:

>I mean, what *would* be the effect on a vampire of being "brought
>over" again?

The antedote was the AIDS virus. Would the former vampire get AIDS? For that
matter, if Nick made love to Natalie -- or any other mortal -- would she be
in danger of getting AIDS?


Eileen Salmas
esalmas@g.......
"The truth is out there. It's just not in my jurisdiction."
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 20:00:35 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      SPOILER: GVP

I just saw "Last Act" for the very first time (five stars, absolutely!)
and it keeps making me laugh that I have to post an observation about a
first-season episode here because it ties in to a third-season episode
that aired *months* ago... what are we going to do about the
spoiler-protected eps when fkspoilr shuts down?

Anyway, twice in LA, Nick says "clue."
And twice in LA, Ger pronounces it "clew."
Just like GVP, only he's muttering instead of shouting.  :-)

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
** Knightie *** Light Cousin *** Fleur-Booster **
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 20:22:42 -0700
From:         "Shelley M. Maas" <amarys@s.......>
Subject:      SPOILER: LK - Nat's Fear & Actors' Opinions

        Hi, all.  I usually lurk, but LK has brought me temporarily out of
the shadows.  This is because I can't get the image of Natalie's fear as
Nick goes in for his drink out of my mind.  I keep wondering why Catherine
Disher decided to play it that way when, up until that point, she played
Nat as fearless and completely accepting of Nick's vampire nature.  Even
when his eyes change, she smiles at him, and her smile seems almost
triumphant.  It is only when he starts kissing her wrist that she first
displays fear, gasping and wincing a bit when she thinks he is going to
bite (did anyone notice that she does this?  I didn't until a second
replaying of the scene).  From that moment on, as he moves her hair away
from her shoulder and starts to come towards her, she is tense,
frightened.  All the courage seems to have drained away, and she looks
like she's on the verge of running.  I guess my interpretation would be
that she is beginning to come to her senses (I hold with the folks who've
been asserting that she wasn't really in her right mind -- overwhelmed
with grief and built-up depression over her own life, or lack thereof) but
still she does not back down.  Nick gives her every chance to speak up,
push him away, etc. imo, and with the way the scene is played, I wish she
would have.

        I wanted to see Nick and Nat together, wouldn't even have
minded seeing him bring her over or attempt to do so and have it fail (not
unlikely considering his track record), but I didn't want to see it happen
that way, and especially not with the way she reacts once he has bitten
her.  No pleasure at all, as far as I can tell, nothing but fear and the
sense that she is being overwhelmed by violent, terrifying images that she
was not enjoying (to put it mildly).  How very different from the scene
we're shown of Nick with Alyssa, who has a blissful smile upon her face
as he's drinking, looking like it's the most erotic thing she's ever been
experienced.  Why couldn't Nat have experienced at least a little of the
pleasure?  I wonder if the difference could have been in Nick himself
somehow...?  Perhaps the complete acceptance, the "love and faith" he
felt coming from Natalie made him want to open up completely, to share
everything with her finally, and perhaps somehow that desire triggered
the flood of images from him to her.

        The other thing that I've been wondering about and haven't seen
any commentary on (I haven't read *all* of the spoiler posts though) is
what the actors thought of the final episode.  Did they like the darker
ending or would they have preferred a more positive finale?  Perhaps those
going to the Ger-thering will comment on this later.  Whatever their
personal feelings were on the ending, they all did a terrific job in LK.
Love it or hate it, you've got to admit that it was powerful.

        Well, thanks for letting me vent a little!

+---------------------------Amarys@c.......-------------------------+
+-----------------------------Shelley M. Maas---------------------------+
*** No one is ever blind to the truth; sometimes we just prefer to keep our
    eyes closed.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 23:29:04 -0500
From:         Sandra Gray <TMP_HARKINS@d.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: AtA, LK -- Tracy

Eileen Salmas writes:
>The antedote was the AIDS virus. Would the former vampire get AIDS?
>if Nick made love to Natalie -- would she be in danger of getting AIDS?

Well, the AIDS virus killed the "anti-virus" in the vampires.  But
it would be ironic if all it did was slow down their eventual death,
wouldn't it?  Being vampires, their immune systems would fight off the
infection longer than mortals, but suppose the AIDS virus *did*
eventually overpower even the vampire immune system?  I suppose it
would depend on how the AIDS virus was created in the first place.

Another possibility could be that the virus would linger in a weak
state in the vampire, effectively making the vampire a carrier.  But
I would suspect that a vampire would maybe have to engage in intimate
acts with a mortal to infect them, unless you want to consider fangs
as needles.

I think the story intent though was that the AIDS virus killed the
anti-virus and then the vampire immune system destroyed the AIDS
virus just like any other disease a vampire can get exposed to.

--Sandra Gray, forever Knightie
--tmp_harkins@d.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 23:21:57 +6
From:         Don Fasig <phase3@g.......>
Subject:      Re: Help!

On  2 Jun 96 at 16:16, J.A. Stafford wrote:
> believe are some things LaCroix would never do!  I think I've got a
> handle on this character, but it never hurts to have others' opinions
> upon which to reflect.

I think there is very little the LaCroix would not do.  And do not assume
the apparent circumstances of the situation are the circumstances upon
which LC will predicate his actions.

Don Fasig     ---,-<@
phase3@g.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Jun 1996 21:47:00 -0700
From:         [Name removed by request]
Subject:      Re: Urs and LaCroix (AtA, HF spoilers)

i wrote:
>> Because, with only ten actors in Toronto, there aren't enough of them for
>> more than two vampires. And if Divia were after the closest
>> (relationship-wise) vamps in LC's life, she would have gone after
>> Janette, as well. Instead, Divia attacked whoever *seemed* closest

John & Donna Spert wrote:
>A reality argument!  Bite your typing fingers! :-)  Anyway, Janette isn't in
>Toronto as far as we know, so Divia probably wouldn't have known of her.

Only half of it was reality-based. The half that wasn't serious :) Exactly -
Divia probably didn't know about Janette - she was going after who *seemed*
or could have been close to LC. Urs lived at the Raven and was a good target
because of it.

>get LaCroix to talk about the caller on his radio show.  LaCroix tries to
>evade by saying "You still listen to the show.  I'm flattered."  Nick
>counters with "Urs is dead".  LaCroix turns his face sharply as if to
>hide emotion.  He then says, "The word is out.  Being seen in my company
>can be fatal."

Doesn't seem to indicate anything more than LC becoming more convinced than
he's in trouble. Divia has given him another blow - that's what i thought
the look meant. Now if he broke down and cried, "My sweet, luscious, soft
willing body in the night (day) has been horribly wretched from me and now I
must find another! Oh woe...!" Well, then, yes, i'd think he was reacting
with sadness to her death :)

He's never been one to show much emotion (and what he shows isn't always
honest) outside of anger so i've always been unwilling to read into his
looks too much. Tenderness and concern have been reserved for Nick, Fleur,
and Janette. Apart from those three, i really can never be sure...

>Furthermore, I think the conversation between them means that other
>vampires *have* been dying.  At this point, Urs has died at Nick's place

Which is another reason why he reacted the way he did, i thought. The way he
was in Fever - his "people" were faced with a plague. Urs was another number
to rack up on the chalkboard; his failure to properly dispose of Divia is
costing the lives of his "people". That was a terribly constructed sentence.
No prizes for [Name removed by request] tonight.

>> ... But other than apparent innocence,
>> what else could Urs and Fleur have had in common, do you think?

>One wild idea is that she's Fleur reincarnated.  LaCroix, an old
<snip>
>company over and over.  Fleur is certainly a candidate for this.  And it
>would make LaCroix's "innocent goddess" remark both a statement of his

Wild and crazy but i like that in posters, mes chers. Had she been Fleur
re-incarnated, LC would have never let her out of his sight! He wouldn't
show up for work at the Raven or for his radio show... the dancers and
waiters/waitresses would have wrecked the place, demanding their paychecks,
the bar would have fallen into disrepair, Nick and Nat would have skipped
into the sunset...

>brunt of it.  (ObWimpOut: I am not prepared to defend this at this time.)

That's fortunate. My rapier wit and explications may have stunned you into
temporary catatonia. Yah! <whizz, whizz of rapier>

>season appearances as a dancer, it could be that LaCroix gave her a job,
>there was an initial attraction, they became lovers, and then she gave up
>her rather tacky job and outfits since he could provide for her.
>(LaCroix's pride would also dictate his lover not be a dancer in a club.)

Ah, so he'd be like her Sugar Daddy. Sugar Uncle. Concentrated blackberry
preserves Uncle. Ribena Uncle.

>That's what makes this fun!

And makes my head hurt. i don't like this thinking thing...

[Name removed by request]

All I have is what I might have been - Gavin Friday
How can you trust someone who bleeds for 7 days and doesn't die? - BGW
=========================================================================

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