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FKSPOILR

Logfile LOG9605 Part 45

May 21, 1996

File: "FKSPOILR LOG9605" Part 45

	TOPICS:
	SPOILER: LK - Nat
	SPOILERS:  Last Knight (also AtA) - Think a moment ....
	LK Request
	Spoiler: Last Knight  (9)
	SPOILERS: Last Knight parallels to an English ballad
	Revelations (LK and AtA spoilers)
	SPOILERS:  Last Knight
	LK and AtA comments
	SPOILER: LK (HF), Distorted views
	SPOILER: Last Knight Math
	Last Knight - Major Spoilers
	fictional resurrections
	Last Knight spoilers
	Last Knight thoughts

=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 00:44:30 -0500
From:         Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: LK - Nat

At 10:19 PM 5/20/96 -0400, Lisa P. wrote:
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>
>
>S
>E
>C
>T
>I
>O
>N
>
>I agree with those who feel cheated out on the "love scene" between Nick
>and Nat.  ....after 3 years of building up to this moment, more time
>could have been spent in showing the deep feelings that they feel for each
>other.  It just seemed rush.  No romance.

Because this was a lousy time and a lousy reason for making love.  They
had both been through traumatizing experiences.  They were both feeling
desperate, and Nick was feeling guilty.  Nick wasn't trying to make love,
he was trying to assuage his pain and guilt. (I'm not saying he was aware
of that, of course.)

Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
N&NPacker
The Unnamed Faction
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 02:31:11 -0400
From:         Ray Heuer <RayHeuer@a.......>
Subject:      SPOILERS:  Last Knight (also AtA) - Think a moment ....

Ok, what I am about to say may have been said a dozen times by now, I refused
to read the LK spoilers until I saw the ep, and now I'm only up to about
Friday night.  Here's my take on things:

NICK:  I hate to say it, Knighties - Nick is a murderer.
      Nat performed the ultimate act of love and trust - she asked (hell, she
practically begged) Nick to make love to her, knowing that the results could
be fatal.  Nick does NOT bite Nat in the throes of sexual pleasure, he chomps
her right then and there.  Nat has a slight flash of fright, just as Nick
bares her neck (and, Bricky-boy, "making love"  requires baring more than
THAT), but again, her love and trust override her fears.
     Then, when LaCroix (see below) comments that she is "on the brink", Nick
ignores her repeatedly expressed wishes and consigns her to death.  Does the
phrase "reckless disregard for human life" sound familiar detective?
     I would add to my charges that he was a liar and hypocrite, except that
he makes good his promise that they would be together by asking LaCroix to
stake him.  I'll just add to those who claim that he should have taken his
own life that I believe he wanted to "die in Nat's arms" as she did his.  I
also think that FK canon is that a vampire cannot stake him/herself nor
remove a stake from him/herself, which would require the actions of "his
closest friend", reminiscent of the Vachon/Tracy stake scene in AtA. (Yes,
Vachon "staked himself" in the sense that he provided all the motion and
force, but Tracy held the stake, and we've seen this sort of "self-staking"
before, always by accident.)
     And just to add my opinions on the blood tears/water tears issue, I
chalk it up to lack of continuity combined with budget constraints.  If the
"blood tears" scenes in K:tE are any indication, they must be hell on makeup,
not to mention uncomfortable for the actor.

LACROIX:  Is it just me, or is Uncle a first-class Peeping Tom?  Every time
Nick tries to bring someone across, there's LaCroix with some wry comment.
 Has he been all the time, watching?
     This is all speculation, and I think deliberatly left open to
speculation by TPTB.  *I* think that Uncle yelled, "Damn you, Nicholas!"
because at that moment he realized that he couldn't strike the blow.
 Certainly not so soon after Nick's saving his life in AtA.  "Quid Pro Quo,
Nicholas, I always pay my debts."  (NiQ)  And LC owes Nick his life (unlife?
 undeath?).
     I'm sure that LaCroix would see his inability to strike as a sign of
weakness, as Divia charged during the fight, and thus a victory for Nick's
"goodness" over LC's "evil" (not that Uncle would use those labels).  So if
Nick is alive, what about...

NAT:  I had to watch LK three times before I realized the answer:  NAT IS
ALIVE!!  Perhaps as a vampire, but alive.  Throughout the ep, we see a
distorted vision of LaCroix, dressed as he is in the climactic scene,
speaking the same dialogue.  What we are seeing (IMHO) is Nat's groggy
perception of LaCroix's speech in that scene, and almost everything else is a
Nat flashback.  (LC had flashbacks in AtA, why can't Nat have one in LK?).
 The question I can't figure out is whether she's been brought across.  Nick
is so helpless with this sort of thing that he always seems to need Uncle to
"grade" him.
     If Nick had simply said "Yes" after "...or had you intended to add her
to our entourage?", I think Uncle would have shrugged and accepted it.  While
LC's opinion of Nat is vague in canon, I suspect that it is lower than that
seen in most fanfic.  LaCroix sparing Nat the fate promised in BMV would pay
the debt from AtA (a life for a life, Quid Pro Quo).

TRACY:  I don't see much hope for her, unless Nick went back later, or Vachon
rose from the grave (I think he would have drawn some attention at a hospital
dressed in filthy, rotting clothes).  But the most telling question of all
is, Where are her parents?  If Reese had time to take care of the paperwork
that a shooting in his precinct would cause, the Commissioner should have had
time to be at his daughter's deathbed.  Of course, that would have made
Nick's vamp-out scene impossible, so....
     It's tragic that Tracy's last act as a police officer should have been a
mistake.  Nick was negotiating with a perp unarmed.  Tracy steps into the
perp's line of sight and points a weapon at him.  Dawkins' reaction is
obvious and predictable, and should have gotten them both killed.  Where did
Tracy go to the police academy, Spelling University?
     Nope, unless Nick went back again, Tracy's perked her last perk.  And if
he did, that would not only be a betrayal of Nat's trust (bringing over Tracy
while refusing to do so with Nat), but an indication that he *can* control
himself if he wants.

OTHER RANDOM THOUGHTS:
    The HF Cure:  According to Janette's account, it was not the sex and the
"sipping" that made her mortal again, if was her rage/grief/catharsis when
Robert was killed.  The emotions that Robert had awakened in Janette's "cold,
dead heart" burst forth and "cured" her.  Although Nick did not give the
cathartic scream that they both did in HF, Nick *might* have been mortal at
the moment LC raised the "stake".  But if so, I think Uncle would have struck
without a second's thought.
     Reese vs. The Water Cooler:  I wish that he would have gotten water this
time, and then said something along the lines of "something terrible is about
to happen" just before Dawkins broke free.  But they haven't done any water
cooler scenes lately, have they?
     Tracy's outfit:  Personally, I think that sweater-and-slacks oufit was
the most fetching outfit she's worn all season.  Pity someone had to go and
put a hole in it.  I thought back to Urs' outfits in AtA and I wondered if
the wardrobe person decided to go out with the best the budget could handle.
 For the women at least.
     Nat's outfits:  Again, about the yummiest I've seen.  Although having
her wear a cream outfit with a peek of white lace in the scene where she
offers herself to Nick rings too much of "virgin to the sacrifice" for me.
     The bust of LaCroix:  Forgetting about where it came from (LC's had 19
centuries to comission another), why is it sitting on the bar?  We see
LaCroix close his steamer trunk (how delightfully retro!), so he's obviously
not bringing it with him.  IMHO, he planned to give it to Nick, if Nick
decided to stay on in Toronto.
     Chomping through the centuries:  Those brief flashes of Nick muching on
victims, all beautiful women, suggest that Nat shared some of Nick's
memories.  Perhaps she also shared his blood.  Wouldn't it be ironic if Nick
became mortal in the act of bring Nat across?  Of course, that situation is
easily remedied, since LaCroix is standing right there, peeping as usual.
     "You have thought this out ...?"  Hell no.  He may have planned for the
murder/suicide if the plan failed.  But what if it worked?  If he had been
able to just "sip"?  Would he and Nat have made love *on the floor* *with LC
due any minute*?  Sounds like a great JADFE story.

     Oh, and I hate to break it to the Vaqueras, but on close examination,
Vachon had that stake still in him when he delivered his "wish me luck" exit
line.
     Now where did I put that asbestos suit?

  --  Ray
   Nat Vamp Camp
    Damn you, Nicholas!
     Rage!  Rage!  Against the dying of the Knight!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 00:01:10 -0500
From:         Robbi Egersdorf <egersdor@m.......>
Subject:      LK Request

Can someone please send me the post that described what happened in LK
verbatim.  I accidently deleted it.

Thanks
Robbi
Long Live the Knight
egersdor@m.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 00:08:56 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@m.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: Last Knight

> At 11:10  -0700 5/19/96, Cynthia (and Jane?) wrote:
> >And, by the way, Nat was wrong to stop him.  She constantly tells Nick
> >that he has no right to make decisions for other people.  How dare she
> >make this kind of decision for Tracy?

Actually, how dare *Nick* make this kind of decision for Tracy?
*Usually*, consent is important to him.  Nat was acting on Richard's
behalf, in that case....

And then the person who was quoting Cynthia & Jane wrote some stuff about
it being perfectly all right to bring Tracy across, because then she
could commit suicide if she didn't like being a vampire, just as Urs
could have.

That really riles me, but probably only because I've lost count of the
number of times I've explained my Theory of Urs (and Free Will in
Vampirism) By Way Of ND.  :-)

One of the interpretations of FK has always been from the pov of the
religion Nick was raised in, which is where he got the idea that both
vampirism and suicide automatically damn you.

*That* is the major reason why Nick is less than happy about being a
vampire, as it is why neither he nor Urs ever walked into the sun.

Everyone is entitled to her own opinion, of course, but this is a very
important part of *Nick's* outlook, even when he suppresses it.  It is why
he finally decided to let Nat die rather than bring her across  -- he
couldn't bring himself to damn her.  (That's what LC's for... ;) )

As to why he damned Janette.... does accusing him of extreme selfishness
threaten my status as a Knightie?

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight (akr@m.......) ***
"Now cracks a noble heart.  Good night, sweet prince;
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!" -- W.S.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 04:15:45 -0400
From:         Deborah Bender <DBendr@a.......>
Subject:      SPOILERS: Last Knight parallels to an English ballad

      I have had a chance to read only a fraction of the posts on this ep.
The ones I have seen were insightful and creative. I am ready to buy the
Sorcha solution.
      This episode has been compared to a variety of works of art, including
the last act of Hamlet, the series finale of Blakes' Seven, and the
it-was-all-a-dream copout in Dallas. For some reason, the last few minutes of
it put me in mind of an entirely different work, the English ballad Matty
Groves. For this to work, you have to do some gender-switching: Natalie=Matty
Groves, LaCroix=Lord Arlen, Nick=Lady Arlen.
      The setup for this ballad (which I learned off a Fairport Convention
album) is that Lady Arlen seduces a reluctant commoner and Lord Arlen comes
home early and finds them in bed. He demands that Matty get up and fight him.
Being a more practiced swordsman, Lord Arlen deals Matty Groves a fatal blow.
      The ballad then goes on.

Lord Arlen took his own dear wife
And set her on his knee,
Saying, "Who do you like the better of us,
Matty Groves or me?"

Then up spoke his own dear wife,
Never heard to speak so free,
"I'd rather a kiss from dead Matty's lips
Than you in your finery."

Lord Arlen he stood up
And loudly he did bawl.
He ran his lady through with a sword
And pinned her against the wall.

"A grave, a grave," Lord Arlen cried,
"To put these lovers in.
But bury my lady at the top,
For she was of noble kin."

     I am not claiming an exact parallel, but if LaCroix did stake him,
that's the underlying dynamic.

Deborah Bender    DBender@a.......
The Witches Trine, a magazine beyond Wicca 101. Email me for details.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 06:48:10 -0500
From:         TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......>
Subject:      Revelations (LK and AtA spoilers)

Do
I
Still
Need
To
Put
A
Spoiler
Space
Here?

All I ever needed to know I learned from LK and AtA:

Never EVER tell a vampire to make love to you.  You'll either get your head
lopped off or drained to within an inch of your life.

No thank you!  Not even sex with a vampire is worth *that* particular risk,
thank you very much!

Wicked Cousin Tippi, dollar bill wrangler of the Thong Throng!
*Charter Member of the Unnamed Faction*Voyeur of the Menage LaCroix*
"TV shows, like vampires, have a way of coming back from the dead."
Firmly believing that LK was the 1st ep of the 4th season.  Why not?
http://www.netcom.com/~tippinb/wicked.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 06:46:00 CDT
From:         Jill Kirby <jtkirby@m.......>
Subject:      SPOILERS:  Last Knight

There's been a lot of wonderful discussion already on this list, and I'm not
going to repeat it here.  Suffice it to say that even though I was curled up
in a tight painful sniffly little ball the entire time I watched, I <did>
think that this is one of the best FK episodes ever.  Beautifully executed.
Outstanding acting and directing, and a few truly heartbreaking bits of
dialogue.

And neither Nick or Nat are dead-- though they could be.  Depends on a whole
lotta things.  I've seen the script (as have many others) and the only
reason the ending is ambiguous is that it was <filmed that way.>  The script
is very, very clear about what happens.  The episode, as filmed, is not
clear.  We have to give Ger and the film editors a lot of credit (and
thanks) for leaving the ending open for possibilities, both in fanfic and
future film opportunities.

I'm not as upset about the episode as I thought I'd be, given the script.
However, I am angry as hell about the name of the suicide victim.  How
unspeakably cruel it was to use that particular name, especially with all
the references to how she "had no life."

In a way, I'm relieved about how LK came out on film.  But it's going to
take me a long while to stop being angry about the blatant slam to the fans.
There have been fan names in episodes before; it's always been sort of funny.

This one wasn't funny at all.

Thanks for all the discussion and emotion that's been displayed.  I know
it's helped me get through all of this, and I'm sure it's helped others just
as much.  We're a very lucky group of fen.

Jill
Jill Kirby - jtkirby@m....... - http://www.mcs.net/~jtkirby/
  Among familiar things grown strange to me
  Making my way, I pause, and feel, and hark,
  Till I become accustomed to the dark.      --E. St.V. Millay
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 09:09:52 EDT
From:         Lisa McDavid <D020214@u.......>
Subject:      Spoiler: Last Knight

The script called for weird lights and angles on LaCroix, but --
the script did *not* say that the background should be clearly
recognizable as Nick's loft. When it came to the repeats from the
monologues in the tag, it said something about maybe not using it,
but that it would tie all this together.

Since Ger was directing, I imagine it was Ger's idea that the monologues
would be done in the loft and from what really does appear most of the
time to be the prespective of someone lying on the floor. Ger said some
things last year at the Gerthering which I took to mean that he'd like
to think Nick eventually becomes mortal. I know he said of that motor
cycle, "I like to think of it as our <Nick and Nat's> honeymoon Winnebago."
He suggested that in the last scene of the last episode, they might ride
off into the sunrise on it.

So whether the clear tears were intentional or not, I do think Ger was
trying to suggest that Nat isn't dead after all. Since the call from
that directed them to make it ambiguous came at 2 a.m. on the final
night of shooting as they were doing the tag (according to Nigel at
Syndicon East), Ger must have already planned it. I don't know whether
the second time Nick drinks from Nat in the script was cut before or
after that. I wish I knew. Obviously, as far as the spoken dialogue
is concerned, Nick thinks Nat has died. The way Ger filmed the whole
episode, though, certainly looks as though he meant to leave it open
as to whether Nick is mistaken.

Cousin Lisa -- "That will be trouble."
Lisa McDavid
mcdavid-lisa@s.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 09:24:36 EDT
From:         Lisa McDavid <D020214@u.......>
Subject:      Spoiler: Last Knight

Just a comment that I don't remember seeing answered. Someone noticed
Nat's line about "six years ago" and asked when Dark Knight originally
aired.

Dark Knight first aired in 1992, but the six year figure is correct.
The scene in Only the Lonely (1992) in which we saw Nick brought into
the morgue was a flashback to two years earlier. That makes it 1990,
so six years is right.

Cousin Lisa -- "That will be trouble."
Lisa McDavid
mcdavid-lisa@s.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 09:51:58 +30000
From:         Valerie Meachum <valerie@l.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: Last Knight

Darn, that was my last Really Cool Insight that I thought nobody had said
anything about yet!  :-)

For the reconrd, at this point I'm almost *certain* that it's Nat's
perception, for any of several possible reasons:

(a) the classic hovering-around-one's-body routine, which would explain
how she can *see* when she's lying on the floor with her eyes closed;

(b) since there's no good timeframe on when the scattered-through-the-ep
speeches were made, maybe they're actually *after* she regains something
resembling consciousness (either after being brought across or just
through sheer stubbornness)--the only one that's repeated in the
non-hallucinatory loft scene is the bit spoken over the teaser; the rest
could (and almost *must*) be *after* th end of the ep;

(c) the most far-out idea, presented for the sake of completeness and
just for fun, is that they're dreams/premonitions that actually come to
her or to Nick (though as Lisa pointed out the angle on LaCroix is really
her position on the floor) *at the times we actually see them in the ep*.

Right now I'm leaning toward (b), and toward sheer stubbornness.  This is
subject to change iwthout notice.

Later!

Valerie Lynn Meachum    <valerie@l.......>
THE CRUCIBLE * by Arthur Miller * directed by Valerie Meachum * June 6-22, 1996
      Rosebriar Shakespeare Company, Columbus, OH * (614) 268-7986
Visit us on the Web at http://members.aol.com/wiliqueen/rosebriar.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 06:58:12 PST
From:         June Russell <Kat@g.......>
Subject:      Re: LK and AtA comments

Deb and Dianne commenting:
:>2) Umm... LaCroix could close up the Raven without Nick noticing??? C'mon,
:>the Raven was Nick's only recreation! It would be as impossible as us not
:>noticing the absence of Forkni!
:
:Well he might have done it really fast and besides Nick was busy that
:evening. Unless it was more than one evening...I...I am confused.

It depends on how soon after AtA this episode is supposed to be. Remember
how empty the Raven was at that point. I can see LC deciding that it just
wasn't worth it to fix the place up after the fight with Divia. Also, things
within the community had changed for him after that. It would seem to be a
good point to "move on".

Maybe Nick was busy for a couple of days. Who's to say he goes there every
night. In the meantime, LC could have been very busy packing and making
arrangements.

Kat

Kat ( June Russell )
pacifier.com!grendal!kat    kat@g.......
Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 07:24:53 PST
From:         June Russell <Kat@g.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: LK (HF), Distorted views

Amy wrote:
:As easily as I could go all Light Cousinly at this point, it seems
:reasonable to believe that one reason LC would not allow Nick to die is
:because the only way, now, to deprive him of the mortal he loves is to
:keep him here in the world of the living -- "such as it is" -- while she
:slips away.

I think that if LC didn't stake Nick then Nick could just walk out into the
sun. If Nat really is Nick's mortal love (as Fleur is for LC per BMV), I
don't think Nick would take it easily were LC to let her go.

Kat

Kat ( June Russell )
pacifier.com!grendal!kat    kat@g.......
Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 10:39:29 -0400
From:         Carrie Krumtum <CKrumtum@g.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: Last Knight Math

>In short (well, okay, too late for that):
>
>B = 1 + (-1 + (MPD) + Y) = 0 + MPD + Y = MPD + Y
>

OUCH! My head hurts. Man oh man oh man oh man. Just when you thought you were
safe from algebra forever...

Forever Math!

:)=

Carrie, Slovenly Knightie AKA Carrie the Cruel
CKrumtum@g.......
It's hard to judge someone when you're blinded by your love for them.
--Mother Teresa
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 07:42:57 -0700
From:         Cynthia Hoffman <choff@v.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: Last Knight

On Tue, 21 May 1996, Amy R. wrote in response to Natalie making
decisions for others ... this gets confusing, doesn't it?

> Actually, how dare *Nick* make this kind of decision for Tracy?
> *Usually*, consent is important to him.  Nat was acting on Richard's
> behalf, in that case....

I fail to see how Nat acting on Richard's behalf when he's unconscious and
knows nothing at all about vampires in any case is justifiable when Nick's
behavior isn't.  In the FK universe, everyone makes decisions for everyone
else all the time.  We always get our knickers in a twist about it too,
but that doesn't change the fact that in the case of Tracy, Nick was
dealing with someone who was in a position at least to KNOW what she was
up against when she woke up.  And I don't believe for a minute that
Natalie stopping him had more to do with Tracy than with her own "you'll
do it for her, but not for me" stand that followed her stopping him.
Natalie has a right to be angry that Nick will do the bringing over to
vampirism thing for others and not for her; I just dispute her right to
make that decision for someone else.

(Do I contradict myself?  Very well, I contradict myself ... I contain
multitudes ...W.W.)

> That really riles me, but probably only because I've lost count of the
> number of times I've explained my Theory of Urs (and Free Will in
> Vampirism) By Way Of ND.  :-)

My preferred way of looking at the possibility is to assume that Tracy
could choose not to come across via a Near Death scenario.  Even early
fanfic (hi Val!) insisted that choosing to wake up was important.  I
don't think that suicide would be the only way out if Tracy really didn't
want it.

> One of the interpretations of FK has always been from the pov of the
> religion Nick was raised in, which is where he got the idea that both
> vampirism and suicide automatically damn you.

On the other hand, Nick has been around for a long time now, and his
experience in the world has had an impact on him.  The Catholic Church has
changed its views amazingly in the past 25 years, not to mention eight
centuries.  While suicide is still frowned on, I doubt that even the
staunchest Catholic would insist that Nick starve himself because his food
is blood.  Isn't that part of the mass?

> *That* is the major reason why Nick is less than happy about being a
> vampire, as it is why neither he nor Urs ever walked into the sun.

No, it's not the major reason Nick is less than happy about being a
vampire.  Most of the time he seems more concerned with seeing sunlight
and having sex that doesn't result in another person's untimely demise.
The damnation stuff doesn't come up all that often.  Unless it's in
relation to Natalie.

> Everyone is entitled to her own opinion, of course, but this is a very
> important part of *Nick's* outlook, even when he suppresses it.  It is why
> he finally decided to let Nat die rather than bring her across  -- he
> couldn't bring himself to damn her.  (That's what LC's for... ;) )

See above.  And see fanfic, to be posted soon.  (Coming soon, the
scenario we've finally discovered where Nat gets to stay alive and we
don't feel like we've betrayed the integrity of either the episode or the
characters in it.)

> As to why he damned Janette.... does accusing him of extreme selfishness
> threaten my status as a Knightie?

Oh, go ahead.  It was selfish.  But it also made sense where Janette's
character was concerned.  To wit:  Janette spent 1000 years as a
reasonably well-adjusted, almost happy vampire and Nick spent 750 of
those years with her.  She's emminently practical; "I'm human now?  Let's
see what this is all about."  Oops.  "I'm a vampire again?  Damn you for
not listening to me, but I know how to do this.  See you next century."

As I've said before, I don't think bringing Janette back across was
damnation; but then I'm a Buddhist former Orthodox Jew; next life if I'm
Christian I'll get back to you.

Cynthia
Cynthia Hoffman/choff@v.......
Raven ** IB ** MBDtK
We cater to the occasional fetishist
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 08:44:54 -0600
From:         Deb <drowland@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Last Knight - Major Spoilers

John Folden wrote:
 Unless of course
the entire last episode was simply Nick's Knightmare brought about because
of Divia's "bad Blood".

Ooooo...now this idea I like! I had been perturbed that Divia's attack
drove Vachon mad and gave him a wound that apparently never healed but
Nick's facial scratches were completely healed when he showed up to save
LaCriox. At least in the ficton universe Nick doesn't heal as fast as the
other vamps because of his avoidance of human blood. Maybe he got a
"transfusion" of Divia's blood during her biting him and it boosted his
powers enough to heal then led to this Knightmare of an ending.

BTW: did anyone else get the impression that Nat was more than a little
upset at what she was seeing when Nick bit her? She wasn't showing any of
Alyssa's enjoyment of the act. I think it was the first time she truely
understood the violence and agony of Nick's existance and if he had been
able to ask her THEN if she wanted to come across she would have chosen to
die.

just MY .02

Deb   Knightie with strong Cousinly urges
"You can't run away forever, but there's nothing wrong with getting a good
headstart."
    _Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through_ by Meatloaf
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 08:51:07 -0600
From:         Deb <drowland@a.......>
Subject:      fictional resurrections

I think these characters were killed or apparently killed then returned:
1. Kirk (Generations- he fell into the Nexus)
2. Dr. Who (I'm not a Whoian but isn't that how he keeps changing appearances?)
3. Superman
4. "Sir John Smythe" (Elizabeth Peters' master art thief)
5. about half the characters on any daytime soap
6. Fox Mulder (just how *did* he get out of that burning boxcar?)

probably more but I've GOT to get back to work now.

Deb
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 08:44:25 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@m.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: Last Knight

On Tue, 21 May 1996, Lisa McDavid wrote:
> the morgue was a flashback to two years earlier. That makes it 1990,
> so six years is right.

And it conclusively answers my old question about the missing year: the
characters did live it (though I suppose the bombing reference in BB
established that, too).  Of course, it is still up in the air as to
whether a year passed (for them) between seasons one and two, or whether
the three seasons' worth of episodes are merely spread out over four
years.  At least the BB reference makes it clear that the lapse is not
between seasons two and three.

Of course, putting Nat's birthday in April, when it took all that
trouble to establish her as a Cancer.... did they *ever* change the
calendar on that set?  Sometimes it seemed as if it alternated between
the same two pictures for the entire run.

(I can't believe I'm talking in the past tense...)

And staying on the topic of Nat, was her packing in the morgue just a
leftover from the earlier, insane scripts that had her actively
suicidal?  She hadn't been told yet that Nick was leaving, had she?
Though perhaps, by then, she could read the signs.

Perhaps she was planning to leave if he refused her, as she most
probably expected him to do -- remember AMPH.

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight (akr@m.......) ***
"Now cracks a noble heart.  Good night, sweet prince;
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!" -- W.S.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 11:14:54 -0500
From:         Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: Last Knight

At 09:09 AM 5/21/96 EDT, Lisa McDavid wrote:

>Obviously, as far as the spoken dialogue is concerned, Nick thinks Nat has
>died. The way Ger filmed the whole episode, though, certainly looks as
>though he meant to leave it open as to whether Nick is mistaken.

I hope you're right, 'cause that would make me feel a whole lot better.
Especially if LaCroix didn't accept this walking off into Heaven together
business, and didn't do what Nick asked him to.
It doesn't restore my faith in the creative Powers That Be, though.  Not if
JP meant to have it be that Nat died and that LaCroix did what Nick asked.
And not if it took a Sony executive to tell them to make the ending more
ambiguous.  Does anyone know for sure if that's true, BTW?  I know Ger
said in the Prodigy chat that they got a call telling them to change the
ending, but he didn't say who the call was from.

Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 09:08:00 PT
From:         Tami Lafrank <tamilyn.lafrank@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Last Knight spoilers

Lisa McDavid wrote:
>As usual, I must be insane, because I like Last Knight and I don't think
>it's a tragic ending.

I loved this ep. It was beautifully acted and filmed. It made me feel
rather than just view. That's good TV. So, if you're insane, I must
join you. :-)

>I think, with the human tears and the fact that it took great trauma
>plus the beloved's blood to bring Janette back, that Nick did regain
>his mortality. Imho, Nat isn't dead. The script says "he has drained

Well, I'll disagree a little. I don't think he was mortal. I think he may
have found a bit of redemption and light, but I don't think he made it
back across. However, as the story closes, I have to agree that Nat is
still alive.

>When he comes right down to it, I don't think LaCroix will be able to
>bring himself to stake Nick and I think he knows Nat isn't dead.

Oh, I whole-heartedly agree. There is no way he will kill Nick. He'd kill
himself first. Unless he kills Nick and then watches the sunrise. He doesn't
want to live without Nick, that is perfectly clear across all seasons.

>I've got strong ideas as to what I think happened next, but I'll save
>them for Fkfic-l.

Oooo, I can hardly wait. Do hurry with the story. If you need a beta reader
just holler.

>Anyway, I'll miss the show, but I do feel that the ending was well
>and truly left open -- and I'm happy for it.

I agree. The ending was open enough for several different scenarios in
the future. We must keep campaigning for its return.

Tami LaFrank                   : TCL58@a....... or TCL20@a.......
Faithful Ravenette, IB, MBDtK  : "Have another hit, I think it's helping"
                               : Owner: Sacred Raven Health Spa
We have enough youth, how about: "Come in, relax. We're dying
a fountain of *smart*?         :     to prolong your life"
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 10:26:46 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@m.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: Last Knight

(My second message of the day already, unfortunately, but...)

Cynthia wrote:
> While suicide is still frowned on, I doubt that even the
> staunchest Catholic would insist that Nick starve himself because his food
> is blood.  Isn't that part of the mass?

That's not fair, Cynthia.  The Real Presence is NOT comparable.

And no one is asking Nick to starve -- he's gotten by on cow's blood for
a hundred years now, more or less.  And what I was saying is that the
belief that vampires are automatically damned lurks somewhere in Nick's
mind, not in contemporary theology.

Regarding Richard, I meant to hold him up as one of the exceptions to the
rule of Nick usually preferring to have consent before bringing someone
across.  Obviously, I need to integrate IWR as completely into my view of
Nick's view of vampirism as I have into my view of Natalie's view of
vampirism.  That being as it may, I do not think Nat was trying to stop
Nick from bringing Tracy over at all.  I think she was willing for Tracy
to be made a vampire, and just wanted Nick to see that there was no
conflict in doing the same for her.

> As I've said before, I don't think bringing Janette back across was
> damnation....

Neither do I, but I insist that it is still a plausible way of looking at
vampirism, especially FK vampirism.  That's all.

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight (akr@m.......) ***
"Now cracks a noble heart.  Good night, sweet prince;
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!" -- W.S.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 15:07:11 -0400
From:         "C. Monique Solis" <CMSolis@a.......>
Subject:      Last Knight thoughts

Okay, delurking long enough to get these few things
off my chest.

One:  I loved it--it's Forever Knight.  I hated it.
I feel like I've been cheated. If they were going to end
 it like that why couldn't they have taken their time and
worked out "all the loose ends" for us?  Taken two episodes
to finish it and done it up right?

Two:  Poor Nat!  I was bouncing around the room
thinking "Yes! He's going to do it--they're going to do it!"
(My husband thought I was nuts at this point) and got
the disappointment of my life!  I'm sorry guys but a little
smooch & Pepe le Peu wrist kiss is NOT foreplay. Don't
TPTB have sex lives?  I don't think that's what Nat had in
mind when she told Nick to make love to her.  Nothing like
making it just a little exciting.  GEEZ!

Three:  And who are they fooling?  Did we actually SEE LaCroix
kill Nick....NO.  That is not closure!  If they have no intentions
of making a fourth season (oh, ya sure, 2 hour movies) they
should have shown it!  I can't see them making 2 hour movies
about a series that in their opinion was not cutting it according to
the network and especially now that everyone is dead! Uggh!

Okay enough.  I just have one question...  Is anyone else going
to have a hard time watching the 1 &2 seasons now that everyone
is DEAD?

You know its bad when someone you know who doesn't really
care how it ends is pissed off about the Romeo & Juliet style
ending.

okay deep breath! <sniffle>
goodbye sweet knight.

Monique
Forever and ever Knightie!!
cmsolis@a.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 May 1996 16:37:17 EDT
From:         Tanya Smith <bodybldr@v.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: Last Knight

Just a quick note; I am dealing with vampire redemption in my
fiction.  I believe their salvation must be differentiated from
mortal salvation; however, I am convinced that God will provide
a way.
For more on the divine battle, see The Search.
=========================================================================

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