File: "FKSPOILR LOG9605" Part 21 TOPICS: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes (7) Ashes to Ashes (2) Ashes mini-loop (no spoilr) spoilers: francesca - blood knowledge Spoiler: Ashes to Ashes -- LaCroix Ashes SPOILER: Last Knight (Ep Synopsis) Spoiler: Ashes Ashes: why Vachon is NOT DEAD SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes, Tracy's memories (2) SPOILER: AtA: New faction: Cleopatras ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:27:04 -0400 From: Apache <lf@c.......> Subject: Re: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes OK, a serious post. Wowee! was this a great ep or what! It had everything that made me fall for FK in the first place, including the show's self-teasing good humor ("does it really matter?") about the sheer silliness of a vampire cop show. And then underneath -- hey, Ok, this isn't "ER," but -- wait a minute, ER's about life and death, and us, we're talking about The Human Soul here... oh, that little thing. If only FK had had the luck to get treated as Fox treated X-Files. I look forward very much to its return in some incarnation or other down the road. Fabulous writing. Beautiful directing: what Jon Cassar did in shot after shot with the imagery of glass for the fragility of life, even vampire life, contrasted with the golden glow of death in the Egyptian tomb... and that's just if you had the sound down. Antoinette Messam was far and away the best of the show's continuing saga of Costume Designers; last week Francesca looked great in 1755 Paris; this week Lacroix and Divia looked great in Egypt. The acting -- I agree, look out Nigel Bennett, here comes another Gemini nomination, and this episode could also support nominations for Blu Mankuma and Geraint Wyn Davies, though other episodes this season would be better. Lovely work too by Catherine Disher, Ben Bass, Kathryn Long and Kristin Lehman. Lisa Ryder, darling... you need to brush up on Major Emotions. You do great in naturalism, like the scene in the car, but the reactions to Vachon staking himself and expiring, and the weeping over the corpse, were terminally unbelievable. It read as way underplayed, not to say just not very good. Ben Bass cleverly resorted to Shakespearean tricks when the scene went all Grand Guignol and gothic, and then went back to naturalism as he died -- subverting/creating good tension with his lines each way. Wish Lisa Ryder had done the same. Laurie CF and others have said wonderfully how great a development this episode was for Lacroix. Having done such evil himself, how could he have been other than he is for the last 2000 years? And having known himself to be father to such evil fully 1000 years before bringing Janette and Nick across -- o, delicious character! "Forever The Cross" is a real possibility at this point for me. I really like the way the show has veered powerfully toward the metaphysical reading of the vampire condition lately -- and Nick's utter shock at Lacroix's "I may even say a prayer" -- too delicious, in a wholly delicious episode. The circularity of Divia, in the show's penultimate episode, telling Lacroix she killed her master because he tried to control her, and Nick flaming-staking Lacroix for the exact same reason 1900 years later, in the show's premiere, was nifty. Lacroix in the holding tank, with five or six petrified thugs .... wonderful. Long before Nigel delivered his line about "the disenfranchised," his body language, standing there so still and upright in the diametrically opposite corner, said it all. Another delicious moment. "I believe you'll find what you're looking for here ... and there." Nick's "...please" in that same scene (remember him thanking Janette for playing along with police procedure instead of just flying away in -- is it Fate Worse than Death?). Divia slamming Lacroix around -- evil is very tough, n'est-ce pas? Poor Lucien. And then his heart breaks as Divia writhes with the stake through her (at the other end of the spectrum from Luke Skywalker finally reclaiming Darth Vader's soul with "Father help me" as the Emperor hits him with a few gigawatts of psychic energy), and Nick has to restrain him from helping -- not much restraint, the force of one love (Nick) having to overpower the other (Divia). Lovely. Ya know, between the distressing altruistic streak, the 'there is good in you' speech in the face of the possessing demon, listening placidly to Janette saying she has been given doubts by prolonged exposure to Nick, and this attribution of survival to 'resurgent goodness' ... if Lacroix falls in love with a mortal, I'd say he might, like Janette, run up against the 'human factor' himself. If I started in scene by scene, it would take all day (ok, I heard those groans! and THEN I'll read my little war poem, The Iliad) to praise all the great moments in this ep. Apache HELP SAVE REAL LIFE! Visit http://aol.members.com/FuzNatLamb/SaveRealLife.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 12:41:45 -0700 From: "Diana L. Edwards" <frisson@i.......> Subject: Ashes to Ashes I just saw this ep and you all have summed it up well. WOW!!! is right. I just wanted to say that these, *finally*, are the LaCroix and Nick scenes that I have been wanting to see for three seasons. I always thought that they would happen in a flashback, but I think I like this better. *Finally* an episode with LaCroix as its center. Nigel, you truly are a master. <VBG> Bonnie wrote: >>ObWeird FK Comment: I have *seen* the final LC/Nick scene before -- I don't >>know how or where, but I *have* seen it! I'n glad I'm not the only one. Wasn't there a first season episode where LC and Nick stood over a burning body? I'm in the process of re-watching season one now and I'm going to be looking for this. Does anyone remember? ~~Cousin Diana frisson@i....... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 14:58:23 -0500 From: TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......> Subject: Ashes mini-loop (no spoilr) Hey all, Clearly this ep has had a profound emotional impact on just about everyone who saw it, including me. If anyone wants to start an Ashes mini-loop, let me know. We can talk at length about the nittiest of gritties without worrying about flooding the main spoilr list. Toodles! Wicked Cousin Tippi, dollar bill wrangler of the Thong Throng! Charter Member of the Unnamed Faction. Voyeur of the Menage LaCroix. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 13:00:15 -0700 From: Bonnela <callalily@l.......> Subject: Re: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes Dotti wrote: >I do want to answer (was it Bonnie) Yes, it was me.<G> >who seemed so upset with Nick's having >Tracy forget that Vachon died. Do you really think it would be easier for >her to sleep nights with the memory of Vachon impaling himself on the stake >in her hands? Definately! And it's not like she actually killed him -- he committed suicide! At least she was there for him, yet again, when he was dying. >I don't think so. She cared about him, and made the statement >that she really didn't think they would work because the "evil" she felt in >him scared her, so it's not as if she would feel hurt for long that he left. But she was just protecting herself. She obviously cares *very* deeply about this guy (she has risked her life when he has been violent towards her due to illness -- Fever and AtA -- to be with him, to show by her actions, even if she can't with her words, that she cares), but he's so mysterious to her. She hints around at the relationship topic, hoping he'll bite (so to speak), yet he never does. It's more like she is trying to convince herself with that "I feel evil in you" line -- I don't think she truly believes that he is evil (of course, the vampire part of him does freak her out) but she has never seen him kill or torture someone (except Vudu who was trying to blow up TO) and she has seen him help Screed and herself many times. So, I think that she *would* hurt a lot if she thought he had just left -- all those unresolved feelings she has for him. She would torture herself with "I should have said more" and "I said too much" for a long while. She would be angry at herself for driving him away, or not being enticing enough to keep him around. And, eventually, she would become angry at him for leaving, for not responding to all of her hinting about relationships. >I'm sure if he was going to bother to plant that it was time for Vachon to >move on, he would plant that they had a fitting farwell so there would be >closure. Yeah, but if he really cared about her, which is what she wants, then he wouldn't leave. And I don't think that LC could plant anything in her head to make her believe that his leaving was a good thing. After all, she has had no experience with vampires and is unfamiliar with the reasons they move on -- heck, Nick wasn't able to convince Nat that it was best that he move on (in BB). >I know if I cared for someone at all, I wouldn't want to remember >them dying in front me for any reason, and I would welcome being made to >forget. It's the same theory I have for funeral homes. The last memory I >want of a person is a happy one, when they were alive, not looking at them >laid out unnaturally in a coffin. Some folks say it's necessary for some >kind of "closure", I don't think so, it just continues to haunt me. I don't think having to see the dead body is necessary for closure -- dead bodies kinda freaks *me* out actually, and I have seen plenty of them (related and not). But, my point is, knowing that a person is dead (whether you see the body or not) is different from thinking that person is still alive and can't (or won't or doesn't want to be) with you. Closure doesn't necessarily come with the package of death -- more often than not there are things that get left unsaid (remember Nat and her grandmother in DoN?) -- but, for Tracy, knowing that Vachon is dead would be better than knowing that he doesn't want her enough to stick around. And if Nick is going to all of the trouble to make her forget stuff, then it why leave her with the knowledge of vampires? This makes no sense to me -- knowing about vampires will not bring Vachon back or make her any less upset that he is gone (dead or skipped town), yet it will continue to complicate Nick's relationship with Tracy -- even worse will be having the knowledge of vampires and *no one* to talk to about them (at least before she had Vachon to talk to) -- the least he could do is let her know that Nat knows (even if Tracy just thinks that Nat knows about Urs, Screed, and Vachon and no one else). I maintain that Nick is being a selfish, inconsiderate BRICK! Any speculation on whether Nat would have confided in Tracy if Nick and Vachon had both turned up dead? Bonnie (callalily@l.......) The Vaqueros have a New, Ultra Cool, Not-To-Be-Missed Web Page!!! Prepare yourself to be blown away! Lots of drop dead pictures! <g> Check it out at http://users.lanminds.com/~callalily/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 13:26:16 -0700 From: Bonnela <callalily@l.......> Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes At 12:41 PM 5/12/96 -0700, Diana L. Edwards wrote: >Bonnie wrote: >>>ObWeird FK Comment: I have *seen* the final LC/Nick scene before -- I don't >>>know how or where, but I *have* seen it! > >I'n glad I'm not the only one. Wasn't there a first season episode where LC >and Nick stood over a burning body? No, no! Not a season one ep -- but *this* *exact* *scene*, this dialogue! It's weird. Bonnie (callalily@l.......) The Vaqueros have a New, Ultra Cool, Not-To-Be-Missed Web Page!!! Prepare yourself to be blown away! Lots of drop dead pictures! <g> Check it out at http://users.lanminds.com/~callalily/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 16:28:05 -0400 From: "Margaret L. Carter" <MLCVamp@a.......> Subject: Re: spoilers: francesca - blood knowledge The problems that have been brought up about the "whole life in each drop of blood" concept don't seem like problems to me, because I don't understand this "knowing" to be intelllectual knowledge of objective facts, but rather an empathic, gestalt-like immersion in the donor's personality. I see it as conveying emotions, general impressions (Vachon gets a confused rush of images from Divia, not an orderly chronology of her life), etc., which would not rule out Nick's "catching" a temporary talent in music from the victim's blood. And I don't see why the memory would be completely wiped out after the 2 hours are up, in the sense of complete amnesia; the way I see it, the vampire would remember having shared these feelings and impressions, but the *experience* of the sharing would have faded away. I see the Quickening in HIGHLANDER as somewhat similar, except that the experience doesn't go away but has to be integrated into the recipient's psyche -- but doesn't take him over except in the case of the Dark Quickening, which I assume took over Duncan because it came from a very old, powerful Immortal who had absorbed lots of other quickenings. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:28:00 -0500 From: Sarah Welsh <welshkin@d.......> Subject: Spoiler: Ashes to Ashes -- LaCroix What gets me is that after all this time, he's still second-guessing himself: "I could have done as Divia asked." As reprehensible (and probably secretly, forbiddenly attractive) to him as that would have been, he's still not sure that the pain would have been any less than what he suffered anyway by thinking he'd killed her. This from Mr. No-Regrets himself. And he's been hiding that pain for almost 2000 years behind a facade by which Nick was entirely taken in. No wonder that first-season LaCroix was so starkly evil -- we saw him only in Nick's flashbacks and fantasies. And the LaCroix Nick knew was the one who refused to let any of his softer emotions show because of the scars he sustained from the whole Divia incident. As we've gotten to see LaCroix in the present for ourselves, we began taking Nick's word as truth but have slowly been led to see him in a warmer and warmer light. If I didn't know that TPTB didn't really think about it all that much, I'd say that the last two seasons had been carefully planned to show LaCroix becoming more and more a part of Nick's "real" world as opposed to some dark vampire universe off somewhere; seeing him in the precinct in Father's Day was a shock, his proximity to Natalie in Azure seemed threatening, but in the third season he's become more and more "socialized" to the extent that he and Natalie don't seem out of place in a scene together, that he can reminesce about the "good old days" with Nick and Vachon, etc. TPTB don't deserve such a seemingly well-thought-out progression of character, and they owe it all to the prodigious talent of Nigel Bennett. You can tell that this episode is so good by the way it casts a new light on all the episodes that came before. What seemed to be callousness or cruelty in LaCroix can be seen as fear of vulnerability and of abandonment. Nick is the one person that he loves so much that it gives him the ability to crush him. It says a lot that LaCroix returned in the second season with nary a word of reproach about Nick's trying to shish kebab him. He probably *expected* Nick to detest him because he hated himself for what had gone on with Divia. He thought he deserved to be punished for his role in an no-win situation: take her as his lover and hate himself, or kill her and hate himself. He chases Nick around the world not out of vindictiveness but out of hidden love; he has killed those whom Nick loves for fear that his son wouldn't need him anymore. Horrible and twisted? Possibly. *Human?* Definitely. All this talk about Nick's angst, and LaCroix has been caught in a cycle of self-recrimination for millennia. In relation to BMV, we noted Fleur's resemblance to Nick, but what about her resemblance to Divia? Young, blond, child-like, but she was all innocence and purity where Divia revealed a "corrupt" and "depraved" nature. Perhaps he feared that she would become like his daughter/mother if he brought her across. He most probably believed that he didn't deserve to have love because of his shame over what Divia wanted. A tragic fact about familial sexual abuse is that the victim nearly always blames himself: he loves the person who abused him and feels that it wouldn't have happened if he weren't somehow guilty. In the present day, he spared Natalie not because Nick was actually able to fool him but because he loves Nick and wants something better for his child than he had for himself. He couldn't admit to that, of course. He's been too busy protecting himself and his hurt and his dirty little secret. I'm sure he thought that if Nick knew about Divia, he would hate him even more. The look on LaCroix' face when Nicholas reaches out to him in the Raven -- almost impossible surprise. And then at the end, he lets himself reach back. Not out of the woods yet, by any means, but he found acceptance and understanding where he most wanted it and least thought that he could find it. And I think that Nick, like us, has a new understanding of LaCroix' nature as well. You wonder how much Janette know. More than Nicholas, I'm certain, but not the whole story by any means. She probably got no explanation at all, but NB has said that they were lovers before they met Nick. I'm sure she got something from his blood -- not his whole life story, as we were led to believe in Francesca (otherwise, Nick would already have known this whole thing or had some clue at any rate) -- but the repeated and emotionally-significant blood-sharing would have let Janette know that there was more to LaCroix than met the eye. Hence, her encouragement in Father Figure -- she didn't know exactly what it was that LaCroix needed to exorcise, but she knew that there was something and hoped that his torture sessions would help. But she knew that Nick wasn't ready to understand that yet, that he needed to see LaCroix as the ultimate bugabear. So she was put in the position of being the buffer zone and the glue between two people she loved. This episode has made me go back and re-evaluate *everything* I've ever seen on FK. I love it. Why couldn't it all have been like this? Sarah welshkin@d....... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 16:46:11 -0400 From: Carla Pickering <carlap@e.......> Subject: Ashes I posted the following privately to one person but managed to get myself on spoiler quicker than I thought. So here it is repeated (sorry for duplicating): "Came into my office because thats where the computer is--after Ashes last night I needed some contact. Realize Ashes is still on spoiler, thus the private post. I *am* going to a LK party next weekend but honestly don't know how I can do it either. All I can say is "it did *not* have to be that way. Vachon was not that much younger than Nick and if Urse had just lived a few more minutes to tell Nick what was going on, Nick could have gone to the church instead of the station and called in the troops to save Vachon--then off to the Raven. There has been so much good character development in the fan fic that I feel like the self serving *********s who are insisting on brutalizing some of the characters--have no right to. I am very depressed. I can think of only one thing that brought me down as far--and that was when I had to move off of an almost magical farm I was living on, through no fault of my own, back in 1984. But I'm also royally pissed. I'm all for printing up *VACHON LIVES* bumper stickers, along with *I DON'T Brake for Divia*. I refuse to accept their scenario. I won't. Saille (carla p.) at Crowhawwk in Exeter, Rhode Island with Joanna Darkwind the Wolfish Wonderpup Vaquera and Apricot Sympathizer with Light Cousinly and Dark N & N Leanings VACHON LIVES, RAGE AGAINST THE RAVAGING OF THE KNIGHT ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 16:47:01 -0400 From: Roxanne Piccen <RoxanneP@a.......> Subject: SPOILER: Last Knight (Ep Synopsis) Well, well, well. Amazingly enough, my local newspaper's t.v. section actually lists FK in the highlights section this week. (Figures they'd only do that for the final episode.) FWIW, following is the brief synopsis of Last Knight: S P O I L E R S P A C E "Series Finale: Forever Knight. In the series finale, "Last Knight", Nick and Natalie (Geraint Wyn Davies, Catherine Disher) lose a close mutual friend. In working through their grief, Natalie realizes how much she loves Nick, while Nick realizes he must finally choose between eternal life and true love." Roxanne RoxanneP@a....... (Home) // CHIRMP@a....... (Work) ***************************************************************************** Save Forever Knight! // Save American Gothic! Check out: http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR/SaveForeverKnight.html http://www.best.com/~owls for The Trinity Guardian ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 16:47:48 -0500 From: TORREY L HARRIS <Dona_Torrey@p.......> Subject: Spoiler: Ashes Well my beloved Vachon is dead or at least it looks that way. I stayed up last night to watch the show thinking that I would hate it, and a strange thing happened. I thought it was a good show. Let me set the record straight so my fellow Vaqueros don't hunt me down <G>. I was heartsick to see Vachon die. I wish I could go back and change it but it is done. I think that after the season is over we will all have to make some decisions on how to handle the deaths of the characters for the future Wars, but we can deal with that later. Here were some of my thoughts on the show: 1.I miss Vachon already 2. I never would have thought of Urs and Vachon as being *close* to LaCroix. 3. I felt that the part with Nick was rushed but that may just be me. Other than that I felt that the story was very good and that Nigel did a *wonderful* job. LaCroix was in rare form through the whole show and I found myself glued to the T.V screen. It was so nice to see all of the different emotions in LaCroix. Well I have rambled long enough. I am going now to morn the death of our beloved "bad boy" <pout>. Dona Torrey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 17:21:14 -0400 From: Apache <lf@c.......> Subject: Re: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes On Sun, 12 May 1996, TippiNB wrote: > And now everyone who's always saying *LaCroix* is evil is probably thinking > he's practically the Pope! Man that girl wasn't just evil, she was THE > evil. The source of all evil. The evil to end all evils. She makes her Pa > look like a Boy Scout! No, wait -- a Girl Scout! Man! Whew! Not since > the invention of cheesecake has the world seen such evil! Actually, think back to the master who picked her because he'd never seen such pure evil in one so young. In Lacroix's phrase, he amplified that evil 100 times. If Divia, aged 20, was so evil she lasted 2000 years without food, and managed to get her head back on (facing the right direction, even), dontcha figure the Egyptian is still boxed up and ready to go? When Hamid's brother opens the other sarcophagus, is *he* in for a surprise! This also plays into the metaphysical origin of vampirism -- in fact, I thought Bedard and Lalonde were hinting at a nearly Biblical origin for the evil in this one: Divia's master was "one of the first" and "thousands of years older than the pyramids" -- and his master was...? could it be.... Satan? And it may be that in the FK universe, the more generations you are away from the source, the less powerful the pull of evil inherent in vampirism is -- and therefore the more vulnerable to a biological, as well as metaphysical, "cure" the "virus" is. Ap. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 17:55:56 -0400 From: "Meredith E. Pickering" <Plan2@a.......> Subject: Re: Ashes: why Vachon is NOT DEAD In a message dated 96-05-12 12:43:25 EDT, Apache writes: > The Traditional FK Continuity part: Look, Divia made it back >from being decapitated. As Whoopi Goldberg said in "Soapdish," "You know >what that means? It means [s]he has no head!! How am I supposed to write >dialogue for a character with NO HEAD?!?" I read this message moments after turning on HBO (Sun. afternoon) and realizing that "Soapdish" was showing... Meredith Natpacker, Nick&Natpacker, Dracpacker ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 18:26:40 -0400 From: "Meredith E. Pickering" <Plan2@a.......> Subject: Re: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes In a message dated 96-05-12 17:24:17 EDT, Apache writes: >f Divia, aged 20, was so evil she lasted >2000 years without food, and managed to get her head back on (facing the >right direction, even), dontcha figure the Egyptian is still boxed up and >ready to go? When Hamid's brother opens the other sarcophagus, is *he* in >for a surprise! O.K. folks- I think I discovered a plot-hole the size of Texas - but correct me if I'm wrong... Didn't LC say that he'd put Divia in the same tomb with her master? Which broke the seal. Unless the Master was nothing more than a pile of ashes, where'd he go? He was older than Divia, and she managed to kill him (permanently)? Just a thought. I now return you to your typical spoiler postings. Meredith Natpacker, Nick&Natpacker, Dracpacker Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "grave danger" now, doesn't it. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 16:11:47 +0000 From: Lisa Wolters <redjasper@e.......> Subject: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes You guys are too darned quick on the send button when an episode is this outstanding! I'm too bowled over by the *power* of "Ashes" to even begin to analyze its imagery, dialogue, and revelations....something I know I'll be doing for years to come. Nick sprawled out on the sun painting. Oh man oh man oh man... Let me just say this: Go, Divia, go! She's the "Bad Seed" times a thousand, and I *loved* her. The actress who plays her has improved a thousand-fold since AMPH, too. She was *perfect.* Am I the only one who thought TPTB had perfectly captured Chris Hunt's Divia from "Other Side of Evil"? :) Nick and LaCroix have moved onto a whole nuther plane of existence. I like, I like. (Am I saying that???) LaCroix is now officially the King of Angst. :) Makes Nick look like a chip off the ol' buzzcut. (Now *that* would be a truly bad Ger hair ep... Nick with LaCroix's 'do and brows.) And what little Nick & Nat there was was perfect--sweet and tender... with just a hint of uncertainty. The Tracy/Vachon interaction played flat to me, although I did like Vachon's pose as he impaled himself on the stake. Neat symbolism. Urs? <Shrug.> Although imho she did have the best death scene. The elevator scene was creepy. Divia was all over her like "The Birds." But there was so much else going on here, and even the newer characters got decent treatment, that there was mostly meat and little fat in the ep. I can't believe the momentum that's building toward "Last Knight" or that at the 11th hour, FK is living up to its worth. Where were these eps at the beginning of the season??? I hope that TPTB *will* resurrect this show, especially now that it's been stripped back down to basics, yet with far, far more complex layers of characterization added to it. Nervously awaiting "Last Knight".... Lisa W. * redjasper@e....... (formerly MVRJasper@a.......) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 18:09:30 -0500 From: Sarah Welsh <welshkin@d.......> Subject: Re: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes On Sun, 12 May 1996, Meredith E. Pickering wrote: > Didn't LC say that he'd put Divia in the same tomb with > her master? Which broke the seal. Unless the Master was nothing more than a > pile of ashes, where'd he go? He was older than Divia, and she managed to > kill him (permanently)? Well, she did say that she "scorched him in the sun" which I took as a euphemism for burning him pretty darn bad, considering what happened to the Vietnamese vamp in CRCH. So say that his ashes *were* in the sarcophagus with Divia's decapitated body. Perhaps it was the power of the two of them together than managed to regenerate her. If they had to choose between one or the other, it seems like it'd be a lot easier to reattach a head than reconstitute an entire body from ashes. So she ended up with the power of both of them, which is why she was able to toss LaCroix around the room like that, not to mention the rest of the vamps. What do you think? Sarah welshkin@d....... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 18:14:30 -0500 From: Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......> Subject: Re: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes, Tracy's memories At 01:00 PM 5/12/96 -0700, Bonnela wrote: >I maintain that Nick is being a selfish, inconsiderate BRICK! Well, I don't know whether Nick is being a brick or not, but he's not being selfish or inconsiderate. He may have overstepped by interfering in Tracy's memories, but he did it in an effort to give Tracy some comfort. >And if Nick is going to all of the trouble to make her forget stuff, then >why leave her with the knowledge of vampires? Because from what he overheard Tracy say, knowing about vampires was the most important thing Vachon did for Tracy. It showed her that the world had so much more to it than she had known before. >If he really cared about her, then he ... wouldn't leave. I don't think >that LC could plant anything in her head to make her believe that his >leaving was a good thing. ...she is unfamiliar with the reasons they >move on -- Nick wasn't able to convince Nat that it was best that he move >on (in BB). We don't know that she's unfamiliar with the reasons they move on. We don't know that Vachon hasn't talked to her about that. It *wasn't* best for Nick to move on in BB, not if he wants to be human and not a vampire. He wanted to leave to escape pain. He wanted to just run off and start a new life. I think it has to do with this recurring theme in FK about what life is. Remember, Nick says what he's living isn't life; it's a shadow of a life. If he runs off, that makes that very true. If he stays, faces the pain, and takes his job as a detective seriously, then he is closer to having a real life, a human life. Vachon, on the other hand has never expressed a desire to be anything other than a vampire. LaCroix is awfully good at getting people to think what he wants them to think. He knows Nick is trying to make Tracy feel better, not worse. He's not going to do anything to make Tracy think Vachon just up and left and didn't care about her. He's going to try to make Tracy feel that Vachon was a good friend whose time to leave had come, so that Tracy can remember him with fondness, and less sadness than she would otherwise. Margie (treeleaf@i.......) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 19:44:16 -0500 From: MS CHRISTINA L KAMNIKAR <VQRW76A@p.......> Subject: SPOILER: AtA: New faction: Cleopatras Actually, most of us have belonged to this faction since December. Cleopatra, Queen of Denial ('the Nile ain't just a river in Egypt'). I hearby take as our motto Jamie's rant on FORKNI-L a while ago: NOBODY DIES. NOBODY EVER DIED. I refuse to accept the unacceptable. You can't change any reality if you just go with it. We are just now almost into the second two-year hiatus, that's all. If they had one between first and second season, why not now? Hummin' along with Patty Loveless, Christina vqrw76a@p....... Merc Universal Donor FoFoD Cleo Off on a short vacation, back soon, no, there's no men in white coats and butterfly nets involved, despite appearances.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 17:14:18 -0700 From: Bonnela <callalily@l.......> Subject: Re: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes, Tracy's memories At 06:14 PM 5/12/96 -0500, Margie Hammet wrote: >At 01:00 PM 5/12/96 -0700, Bonnela wrote: >>I maintain that Nick is being a selfish, inconsiderate BRICK! >He may have overstepped by interfering in >Tracy's memories, but he did it in an effort to give Tracy some comfort. It's a nice thought, but... it is still what *Nick* thinks is best. Hasn't he learned anything from Nat? Doesn't he ever listen to her when she tells him how *his* actions make her feel? Does it ever occur to Nick that Tracy might *want* to mourn Vachon's passing? -- that in the end, to face the reality of it is the best thing. >> make her forget stuff, then.. the knowledge of vampires? >Because from what he overheard Tracy say, knowing about vampires was the >most important thing Vachon did for Tracy. It showed her that the world >had so much more to it than she had known before. Okay, you have a point here. But I still maintain that it is cruel to let her believe in vampires and not be able to talk to *anyone* about them -- not that she'll be interacting with known vampires any more, but still she could get herself in a lot of trouble this way. >>Nick wasn't able to convince Nat that it was best that he move >>on (in BB). >It *wasn't* best for Nick to move on in BB, not if he wants to be human >and not a vampire. He wanted to leave to escape pain. He wanted to just >run off and start a new life. This is my point. This is Nick's attitude and he assumes that everyone feels the same way. He says to Nat in BB that he has found it easiest to just leave and not say good-bye. And she points out that it is easiest for him, but he has no idea how the people he leaves behind are feeling. He assumes it is best for them, like he assumes it is best for Tracy to think that Vachon just left. If you relate it to Janette's leaving or being dead, then yes Nick is right. But Janette did *just* leave and he will eventually meet up with her again. Tracy does not have that option -- she could wait her whole life to meet up with Vachon again and it will NEVER happen. This is where the lack of closure comes in; how can she get on with her life if she thinks that he cares and that he is still alive somewhere in the world, yet didn't want her with him? >LaCroix is awfully good at getting people to think what he wants them to >think.<snip> He's going to try to make Tracy feel that >Vachon was a good friend whose time to leave had come, so that Tracy >can remember him with fondness, and less sadness than she would otherwise. But she loves him. If LC convinces her that they are just good friends, then she will lose the memories of those loving feelings. Or she will at least believe that Vachon never did return those feelings, which would be very depressing for her. At least knowing he is dead, those romantic feelings are preserved. I really don't think there is anyway for LC to convince Tracy that Vachon truly cares about her but left anyway. But I will give you that Nick did have the best of intentions. Bonnie (callalily@l.......) The Vaqueros have a New, Ultra Cool, Not-To-Be-Missed Web Page!!! Prepare yourself to be blown away! Lots of drop dead pictures! <g> Check it out at http://users.lanminds.com/~callalily/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 19:29:39 -0500 From: TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......> Subject: Re: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes Sarah wrote: > So she >ended up with the power of both of them, which is why she was able to >toss LaCroix around the room like that, not to mention the rest of the >vamps. What do you think? Yeah, I'll buy that. That sounds good to me. :) By the way, I thought that sun thing he was lying on was a rug. My reception was bad, though, so I could be wrong. I thought it was one of those little throw rugs or something. And what about that painting you see when Divia first shows up in the loft? The one with the guy screaming with a flaming background behind him... Creepy. A portrait of Dear Old Dad? Wicked Cousin Tippi, dollar bill wrangler of the Thong Throng! Charter Member of the Unnamed Faction. Voyeur of the Menage LaCroix. =========================================================================
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