FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 10 Nov 2005 to 11 Nov 2005 (#2005-301)

Fri, 11 Nov 2005

There are 14 messages totalling 440 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

   1. Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder (2)
   2. Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder ATTN: Bonnie
   3. FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Nov 2005 to 10 Nov 2005 (#2005-300) (6)
   4. PRAYER: Shadow
   5. www.fkfanfic.com is back!! (3)
   6. Childe/Child

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:06:55 -0500
From:    gwatson2 <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: Re: Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder

Libratsie says,
     >>I think I recall fledgling being used pre-Rice by other writers.  Yes,
believe it or not, there was vampire fic before her <g>

Hah!  There was vampire fic before Dracula.  I've got a friend who used to
teach at York University here in Toronto; and she had a course on vampires
in literature and film, which started with folklore, and then had a fair
ways to go through the nineteenth century before it got to Transylvania, let
alone New Orleans.  On the other hand, it did wend its way to Toronto.
     When the course was expanded to a full year, Norma invited me to come as
a guest speaker.  Introduced me as "an expert" on Forever Knight -- hah!
     I sure didn't feel like an "expert", especially when, during the Q&A
session at the end, one of the students informed me that FK vampires had a
*Biblical* origin!
     And my mind went totally blank.
     So I asked him what he meant, and he said the show called them "the
children of Cain".
     And my mind remained still *dead* blank on which episode he was
referring to.  (Some expert.)
     He was, of course, basing this notion of a Biblical origin on LaCroix's
comment in "A More Permanent Hell" about their being the children of Cain.
Which I have always taken metaphorically (i.e. vampires are outcast from
human society).  Sure, I can see why, after two millennia of Christianity,
LaCroix'd use such a phrase.  But why would he *believe* in something based
on Hebrew myth?  He's pagan Roman; and I've no evidence that he ever
converted -- which would pretty well have to be after being brought over,
given his characterization in the flashback to Pompeii.
     So, I just did a little fast talk, basically amounting to what I just
said, i.e. about it being metaphorical, but with *no* idea of the actual
context in which the phrase had been used.
     Of course, Norma just wanted to justify to the department the fact that
I was giving a guest lecture and so they'd be paying me the usual *tiny*
honorarium.

Deb Hymon says,
     >> "Fledgling" has been around a long time before Ann Rice.  Several
years ago I did extensive reading on the legends of vampires, and remember
seeing the word in some of the old European legends. The vampire legends
have been around for centuries, and so have many of the terms.

Deb, do you recall your source for the legend?  I'd be interested.  (Contact
me off list.)

Greer Watson
gwatson2@r.......
http://ca.geocities.com/gwatson2@rogers.com/index.html

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:06:01 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder

I'd like to point out that IMHO, since we are dealing with a fictional
television series that only lasted 3 years, there really is no "right" or "wrong"
word to use in FK fan fic, or really any "right" or "wrong" interpretation of a
lot of FK episodes and such.

Just because Nick and LaCroix never used the term 'fledgling' doesn't make it
wrong to do so in a piece of fan fic.  A lot of totally different
interpretations of things about the FK vampires could all be "right"
no matter how much they contradict each other in fan fiction.

This doesn't mean everything is 'right' no matter what, though. For example,
we know FK vampires can't walk about in the daylight like non-vampires because
it was mentioned again and again in the show.

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:16:20 -0800
From:    Kayla Gayle <kaylagaylestories@y.......>
Subject: Re: Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder ATTN: Bonnie

Actually, they did a show like that.  It was called Vampire High and
lasted for a season or two I believe.  There is still fanfic on it.

Joe LaCour <joelacour@c.......> wrote:Bonnie

Another story idea for you.... The word "kinder" got me thinking this
AM on the drive to the office. What if, like many parents, Masters now
had too little time to devote to their new fledglings and the High
Council decreed, after a series of dreadful mishaps, that new fledglings
would have to go to school to learn the Code and other things that all
new vampires need to know. Yep - Kindergarten for Vampires. Our
favorite (favourite?) cop would have some role in the instruction.

Joe



------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:00:57 -0800
From:    FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@y.......>
Subject: Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Nov 2005 to 10 Nov 2005 (#2005-300)

> For example, (as Kayla points out) the term "sire"
comes from gaming --
<snip>
Another reason it might be popular is it's the term
usually used in Buffy canon. It's odd though, as
thanks to minor story change, 'sire' wound up being
used not only for a vampire's direct maker but the
maker of the sire, ect. IE saying that LC is also the
sire of Nick's offspring because he made Nick, Nick
made them...always sounded wierd to me.

Question: Has anyone else seen the other spelling of
'child' used: Childe? In either FK or anywhere else?
It pops up all the time in Buffy fic although I don't
recall it onscreen.


   As Cousin Lucilla says, it sounds really strange
used of women,
<snip>

I always thought that too, when I saw it used for
female vamps in Buffy. Anyway, I digress. I just know
that by now if I ever get back to FK fic I'll wind up
using 'sire' and 'childe' because I'm used to using it
in the other fandom.

Mel




------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:01:54 -0800
From:    FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@y.......>
Subject: Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Nov 2005 to 10 Nov 2005 (#2005-300)

  (minor correction, excuse the double post)
> For example, (as Kayla points out) the term "sire"
comes from gaming --
<snip>
Another reason it might be popular is it's the term
usually used in Buffy canon. It's odd though, as
thanks to minor story change, 'sire' wound up being
used not only for a vampire's direct maker but the
maker of the sire, ect. IE saying that LC is also the
sire of Nick's offspring because he made Nick, Nick
made them...always sounded wierd to me.

Question: Has anyone else seen the other spelling of
'child' used: Childe? In either FK or anywhere else?
It pops up all the time in Buffy fic although I don't
recall it onscreen. And is used in the same way for
offspring, grandoffspring, ect as I described above
for 'sire'


   As Cousin Lucilla says, it sounds really strange
used of women,
<snip>

I always thought that too, when I saw it used for
female vamps in Buffy. Anyway, I digress. I just know
that by now if I ever get back to FK fic I'll wind up
using 'sire' and 'childe' because I'm used to using it
in the other fandom.

Mel



------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:34:19 -0600
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@c.......>
Subject: Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Nov 2005 to 10 Nov 2005 (#2005-300)

On 11/10/05, FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@y.......> wrote:

> Question: Has anyone else seen the other spelling of
> 'child' used: Childe? In either FK or anywhere else?
> It pops up all the time in Buffy fic although I don't
> recall it onscreen.

I've seen that in fic---it strikes me as terribly affected. I don't know
where it comes from but it definitely doesn't belong to the FK universe.
It's not used in scripts when Nick or Janette are referred to as a "child of
Lacroix".

I try to stick to canon except in parodies, so I find that using "master"
and "protege" or "child", all terms actually used in eps, quite adequate to
describe the relationships.

Nancy Kaminski
"Is that a zucchini in your pocket, Nick, or are you just happy to see
me?" -- Natalie to Nick in  "A Zucchini By Any Other Name Would Taste As
Bland" by Me.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:44:57 EST
From:    Dolpfin220@a.......
Subject: PRAYER: Shadow

I'd appreciate if positive thoughts and prayers could be sent for my nine
year old cat, my "baby", Shadow. He recently got some eye trauma which I'm hoping
will not necessitate surgery or end with the loss of his vision in that eye.
We're going to the vet this afternoon for a follow-up visit to see how the
regimen of antibiotics is working.

Janet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:11:36 EST
From:    Billie Lee Williams <McCelt2003@a.......>
Subject: Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Nov 2005 to 10 Nov 2005 (#2005-300)

Brief delurk: <g>

<<Question: Has anyone else seen the other spelling of 'child' used: Childe?
In either FK or anywhere else?>>

In my (fairly large <g>) book collection, which is thanks to a great friend,
I have many things written in "Olde English"  and other languages (Greek,
etc.) translated into English.  While I do not profess to have read them all,
NOR to know a gosh darned thing about old forms of English, I have seen that
spelling while scanning through some of those books.  I do agree with Nancy
<waves> that it seems rather an affectation in modern use, even if coupled with
"sire."

Forever Hugs, Billie-Lee
Billie-Lee Williams, RN, Ph.D.
"Oh, Divine Master grant that I may never seek, not so much to be consoled as
to console, not so much to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to
love with all my heart.  Amen."  Saint Francis

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:08:10 -0800
From:    Stacy <theknightcallsmyname@y.......>
Subject: Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Nov 2005 to 10 Nov 2005 (#2005-300)

"Childe" is one of the terms used in the Vampire: The
Masquerade rpg.  The plural is "childer".

For the curious, here's a page with a list of V:tM
terms.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca6/AshFrolic/vocab.html
Some of the definitions are quite funny :)
Er, to keep this on-topic <G> - It's interesting to
note that they also use the term "beast".  I've seen
that used a lot in fanfic.  Did Nick ever actually
call the vampire by that term?  I can't remember.

Stacy

> <<Question: Has anyone else seen the other spelling
> of 'child' used: Childe? In either FK or anywhere else?>>


DarkNN'er, Faithful
http://heartsblood.descentintodarkness.net
theknightcallsmyname@y.......
YIM: theknightcallsmyname

"I don't accept your reality. I substitute my own."



------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 2005 15:24:13 +0000
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@c.......>
Subject: Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Nov 2005 to 10 Nov 2005 (#2005-300)

Stacy wrote:

> "Childe" is one of the terms used in the Vampire: The
> Masquerade rpg.  The plural is "childer".

<shudder> All apologies to any V:TM fans, but that is simply awful.
It's as if someone had translated the German "Kind" (child) and then
applied the German plural ending ("-er") to the English translation.
That's all the more reason not to use any term such as that in FK
fanfic.

But then, the TV show made from that game was perhaps one of the
worst I've ever seen, right up there with "Manimal". (No, I didn't
like it, why do you ask? <g>)

  > Er, to keep this on-topic <G> - It's interesting to
> note that they also use the term "beast".  I've seen
> that used a lot in fanfic.  Did Nick ever actually
> call the vampire by that term?  I can't remember.

Yes, he did, in "Feeding the Beast".

Nancy Kaminski
Member of the Apostrophe Redistribution Society and Society for the
Prevention of Pretentious Vampire Jargon

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:42:49 -0500
From:    Mel Moser <fkfanfic@g.......>
Subject: www.fkfanfic.com is back!!

www.fkfanfic.com <http://www.fkfanfic.com> has been successfully migrated to
a new web provider and should be live now for most people (DNS is still
propagating for the next 24-48 hours).

Some links and email are still not functional, but all of the story pages,
V4S (Virtual Fourth Season), SoSFK should all be working at this time. I'll
get the rest fixed as I get time.

Take the time today to go re-read some old stories and a Virtual Fourth
Season episode or two. Many people put long hours and love into writing
these stories.

My new provider has some wonderful bells and whistles that I intend to take
advantage of, so look for some announcements of upgrades, changes, additions
to the site soon and check out the main page for changes. A few of them I am
checking into include forums, Web Wiki (we need a Forever Knight wiki!), and
perhaps some blogging and a tracking system for making changes to website.

Thank you to all the old and new friends for the private emails and support
you've sent and offers for assistance. It has really meant alot and I hope
to get some things started to allow more people to assist with the website
shortly.

Hugs,
Mel Moser
fkfanfic@g.......

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:57:13 -0700
From:    Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......>
Subject: Re: www.fkfanfic.com is back!!

Woohoo! That's great news, Mel; I've spent many happy hours with your site, so
it's good to see that it's not going to vanish.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 2005 18:06:03 +0100
From:    CousinLucilla <cousinlucilla@f.......>
Subject: Re: www.fkfanfic.com is back!!

Yes, finally! Way to go, Mel.

Doris

>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:43:53 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Childe/Child

<<Question: Has anyone else seen the other spelling of 'child' used: Childe?
In either FK or anywhere else?>>


I've never seen this spelling in anything official for FK, and I only
remember one usage, where Janette tells Nicholas, "we are both
children of LaCroix."

I have seen it in various other vampire universes. FK, I think, used
maker or references to having been made [a vampire] by another
vampire; or master as in, "I never told you who my master is."
Probably they avoided the word mistress when the vampire in question
was a woman because in English the word often has a sexual meaning.

IMHO, there's a slight difference between using "sire," although
offhand I don't recall this term in FK either.  The word sire does
exist, with that spelling, in modern English and it does mean a male
parent, usually in a non-human context.  It's the masculine
equivalent of dam, a female parent, again usually in a non-human
sense.

McLisa
mclisa@m.......



------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 10 Nov 2005 to 11 Nov 2005 (#2005-301)
***************************************************************