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FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Nov 2005 to 10 Nov 2005 (#2005-300)

Thu, 10 Nov 2005

There are 10 messages totalling 465 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. My FK moment
  2. Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder (3)
  3. Lynne Ackerman
  4. Fledglings, Makers.... (2)
  5. Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder ATTN: Bonnie (2)
  6. Yay Mel!


Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:17:11 -0800
From:    Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: My FK moment

Talked to someone named Jeff DuCharme today :)

"The price for this gift is the darkness of the night, and the blood of
humanity to sustain you." -THICKER THAN WATER, Kristen Fife in progress


Date:    Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:54:43 -0500
From:    gwatson2 <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: Re: Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder

Kayla asked:
"What are these roles called in FK?  I know something like LaCroix to Nick
is "sire" but what about Janette to one of hers? "

I know that when I started reading FK fan fiction last year, I was surprised
to see the frequency with which people used terms that never appeared in the
actual series.  For example, (as Kayla points out) the term "sire" comes
from gaming -- at least, that's where I first heard it used in the context
of vampire relationships, and used of male and female progenitors alike.  As
Cousin Lucilla says, it sounds really strange used of women, given the
word's meaning in the context of animal breeding.  On the other hand,
writers of vampire fiction may be thinking more of its use as a vocative
when addressing monarchs.  Male monarchs usually, of course.  "Sire" never
appeared in canonical FK
    As far as I know, "fledgling" was first used in a vampire context by
Anne Rice.  It has, of course, spread far from that source.  There was a
time when novel terminology remained exclusive; but the popularity of Rice's
stories has led to "fledgling" turning up in many other authors'
*professional* vampire fiction, let alone fan fiction.  However, like
"sire", it was never used in any of the actual episodes of FK.

In FK canon (i.e. the actual televised episodes), the vampire who "brought
over"/"brought across" a human was called the new vampire's "master" -- that
is, if any term was used at all.  Often enough, no specific term was
employed for the relationship, though LaCroix was often called Nick's
    If we go outside the vampire context, I guess most people today would
probably say that the antonym of "master" is "slave".  Of course, in "Killer
Instinct", LaCroix explicitly denied this.  I've got to say that it's always
seemed to me that the more appropriate antonymic pair -- the one that
probably would have sprung to a medieval mind in this context -- would be
"master/apprentice".  But I don't think anyone in any fiction (fan- or
otherwise) uses "apprentice" to describe a young vampire, for all that,
functionally, that's often the relationship as it's described in the story.
    As other people have already pointed out, LaCroix more usually simply
says that Nick and Janette are his "children".  But, as we all know, it's
more complicated than that.  He's not just Nick's father:  he's mentor, best
friend, and worst enemy.  And that complexity is typical in vampire fiction.
I guess that explains why people feel the need to find some specific term
for the progenitor/offspring relationship.
    However, I've got to say, that FK fan writers' use of Rice's word
"fledgling" jars on me.  Not only is it uncanonical for FK, but I still
associate it so strongly with its source that swiping her terminology feels
halfway to writing a crossover.  (Obviously, that's not the intention.)



Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:28:26 +1100
From:    Dot Simpson <jennii35@y........AU>
Subject: Lynne Ackerman

  Here is an update and explanation for all who missed
the initial post.   Dot

Wed  11-09-05  10:37 pm

Posted by Todd Andrews (starman@p.......)

Lynne's health status remains largely unchanged since the last
update (she remains in a coma in the hospital) though for a while
she was having some infections that required her to be moved a
few times in and out of wards that could more closely monitor her
condition. She's on the waiting list at several long-term care
facilities. Her sisters have moved her apartment belongings into

IMPORTANT DEADLINE: Friday, November 18, 5PM Pacific, 8PM
Eastern. If you'd like to leave a message on my phone for Lynne,
this is the deadline to be included on the next audio CD I'll be
making up for her. See "Voices of Lynne's Friends" Project below
for details.

I'm still hoping a Gordon Lightfoot fan will dictate to my phone
one of the "Gord in My Life" stories that I mentioned last time.
For info, see "Audio Gifts for Lynne" below and click on the "Buy
Online" for "Gord in My Life." Note that clicking on the "Buy
Online" only takes you to where you can read the story; you're
not purchasing anything.

Sending Lynne a CD or tape so she can hear her friends voices is
the BEST WAY we can help her right now.

A few people have somehow missed the initial news about Lynne's
going into the hospital so here's a brief summary: Lynne was
admitted on 12/12/04 with pneumonia. At first she started
responding to the antibiotic but then she got very ill because of
an allergic reaction. On 12/20/04 she was moved to the ICU
(Intensive Care Unit). After being in a coma for several weeks,
on 01/13/05 she was awake and alert for a significant period of
time during the day. She continued to improve, albeit slowly, and
eventually was moved (in February) out of ICU and into a private
room. She began receiving physical therapy and was getting
stronger. But in mid-February she had trouble breathing again and
was moved into a different hospital unit for closer monitoring.
She was moved back to a regular room once she stabilized and then
her condition continued to improve. Sadly, she again slipped into
a coma in mid-April and has not regained consciousness since. She
continues to have a traech tube inserted to assist her breathing.

Sorry if some of you are receiving this message more than once.

Kind regards,
Todd Andrews
Portland, OR


The following information will be repeated in each update about
Lynne so you don't have to look up prior emails to find this

1) Send letters and packages (large or small) to Lynne at:

     Lynne Ackerman
     c/o Sheila Ziedenberg
     xx Xxx Xxxxxxxx
     Richmond Hill, Ontario
     xxx xxx

2) The "Voices of Lynne's Friends" Project:

   This is an ongoing project where people can call my voice mail
   and leave a message. The voice mail service I use creates
   digital audio files of the sender's call so it's easy for me
   to create a CD after enough have accumulated.

   Got a funny story to tell? Did something funny or interesting
   happen to you today? An update on what's happening in your
   life lately (new kid, new job, travel)? Please consider
   sharing it!

   The TOLL FREE number is 1-888-778-3092 and when prompted for
   my phone number use: (503) 289-4718.

   Obviously you must be using a touch-tone phone.

   Call any time; it does not ring in my house so you don't have
   to worry about waking me up if I'm sleeping. The voice mail
   service has a five minute limit PER CALL but you may call as
   often as you like.

3) The "Audio Gifts for Lynne" Project:

   I've set up a gift registry that you can access for free at:


   Cassette or CD is OK. A shipping address is included at the
   above link.

   If you or someone you know has already sent gifts to Lynne,
   please visit the registry URL above to update the fact you've
   purchased something, so that we don't have two or more people
   sending the same item.

   Some of the items have links to a web site where you *could*
   buy the item, but mainly the link is provided for the
   description. You need not feel obligated to buy them from the
   linked-to website.

   If you know of other audio/music interests that Lynne has, and
   you want to share your ideas with others through the registry,
   please let me know your suggestions and I'll add them.


Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:46:57 -0800
From:    Kayla Gayle <kaylagaylestories@y.......>
Subject: Re: Fledglings, Makers....

Exactly.  Fledgling comes from the VC and I used it in one story but it felt
very wrong.

Also any "Embraced" verbiage also sounds wrong, though they rip off things from

I can go with the child thing with someone like LaCroix to Nick or Janette but
what if the master, for want of a better word, is that person's lover.  For
example, Nick sopposedly brought Janette back over in Human Factor.  Does that
make Janette his child?  And how would a romantic relationship go with someone
refering to their bed partner as their child?  Somehow I can not make myself go
there with my writing.  The connoctations are just too strange.  Maybe I'm just
to moral for fanfic, lol.

I'm having a lot of trouble with this in one of my non-canon FK stories, but
even non-canon has to be correct so I appreciate all and any responses.

Karen aka Kayla Gayle


Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:37:10 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder

In a message dated 11/9/05 10:56:34 PM Central Standard Time,
gwatson2@r....... writes:

> However, I've got to say, that FK fan writers' use of Rice's word
> "fledgling" jars on me.

Although I can't remember for sure and can't remember where I saw the use, I
think I recall fledgling being used pre-Rice by other writers. Yes, believe it
or not, there was vampire fic before her <g>



Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:39:37 -0500
From:    Joe LaCour <joelacour@c.......>
Subject: Re: Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder ATTN: Bonnie


Another story idea for you....  The word "kinder" got me thinking this
AM on the drive to the office.  What if, like many parents, Masters now
had too little time to devote to their new fledglings and the High
Council decreed, after a series of dreadful mishaps, that new fledglings
would have to go to school to learn the Code and other things that all
new vampires need to know.  Yep - Kindergarten for Vampires.  Our
favorite (favourite?) cop would have some role in the instruction.



Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:56:54 -0800
From:    Michele C <mobody_62@y.......>
Subject: Re: Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder ATTN: Bonnie

Hmmm  Kindergarden Cop??

Hasn't that been done?

--- Joe LaCour <joelacour@c.......> wrote:

> new vampires need to know.  Yep - Kindergarten for
> Vampires.  Our
> favorite (favourite?) cop would have some role in
> the instruction.

Naturally, the common people don't want war, but they can always be brought to
the bidding of the leaders.  Tell them they are being attacked, and denounce
the pacifists for lack of patriotism and endangering the country.  -- Herman


Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:09:58 -0500
From:    Deborah Hymon <debh@e.......>
Subject: Re: Fledglings, makers, sires, kinder


You're correct. "Fledgling" has been around a long time before Ann Rice.
Several years ago I did extensive reading on the legends of vampires, and
remember seeing the word in some of the old European legends. The vampire
legends have been around for centuries, and so have many of the terms.


on 11/10/05 7:37 AM, Libratsie@a....... at Libratsie@a....... wrote:
> Although I can't remember for sure and can't remember where I saw the use, I
> think I recall fledgling being used pre-Rice by other writers. Yes, believe it
> or not, there was vampire fic before her <g>


Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:29:29 -0800
From:    Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: Re: Fledglings, Makers....

Actually, according to dictionary.com, a fledging

fledg·ling also fledge·ling    ( P )  Pronunciation
Key  (fljlng)
A young bird that has recently acquired its flight
A young or inexperienced person.

In this context (especially number 2) using it for a
newly-made vampire is quite appropriate, and adds
double meaning if the vampires in question are capable
of flight.

As far as FK is concerned, this terminology is not
canonical, but it is something that is used
extensively in the fictional genre as a whole, so its
use in FK fan fiction is erroneous although
understandable. In my own original fiction, my
vampires don't fly, but I do refer to the newly-made
vampires as "fledglings", and the makers as "masters".
There are times, when writing FK fiction, that a
writer NEEDS a noun to describe the relationships
between Nick, Janette, and LaCroix. Canonically, I
think "master", "father" ("Father's Day"), "son",
"daughter", "child" and "creation" are all correct.

Regarding the incestuous tones of taking a lover from
among your "family", under that premise, Nick and
Janette were brother and sister for the entire time
they were together as a couple. Although I am not a
member of the UF, my *personal* opinion is that
someone who has lived as many centuries or millenia
as- Nick, LaCroix and Janette all have- involves
activities that cross gender and sexual orientations.
(What I'm saying is that I believe that it would be
unusual for Nick and LaCroix NOT to have had intimate
relations at some point in their relationship.) For no
other reason than curiosity or boredom, or for LC to
reinforce his primacy over Nick. Don't forget that in
Roman times especially, bisexuality was not only
accepted but fairly commonplace. This premise is based
on the question as to whether the FK male vampires are
capable of having sexual relations at all (as well as
the sexual overtones of sharing blood between
vampires). This is debatable given conversations LC
has with Nick (esp. in "Be My Valentine"), although in
"Night In Question" there is no doubt in my mind that
Nick and Natalie DID have sexual relations.

In my own fiction, I have Nick become Natalie's maker
in "These Three" and they end up together as vampiric
lovers. In my original fiction, I have a master
vampire become obsessed with a young woman that he
makes his "eternal bride" by making her a vampire. To
me, it is a very natural progression to have a vampire
create a fledgling/child from a beloved mortal to keep
with him or her for all time. But it is an interesting
debate :)

"The price for this gift is the darkness of the night, and the blood of
humanity to sustain you." -THICKER THAN WATER, Kristen Fife in progress


Date:    Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:36:31 -0500
From:    Portia <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Yay Mel!

Forgive me all, I just wanted to say, "Yay, Mel!!"

Your website was the one that truly introduced me to fan fic, probably around 7
years ago.  That's why I'm so glad I got to see your post today.  So...Yay,



End of FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Nov 2005 to 10 Nov 2005 (#2005-300)

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