FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Dec 2004 to 10 Dec 2004 (#2004-341)

Fri, 10 Dec 2004

There are 13 messages totalling 486 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. HELP!!! Catholic question (7)
  2. Missed A Birthday
  3. What Do You Get A Vampire for Christmas...
  4. oops
  5. re st nicholas as patron saint (2)
  6. Today's Birthday:  December 10

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Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:25:13 -0800
From:    Laura Davies <brightfeather1.geo@y.......>
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Catholic question

First of all, I'm not Catholic <g>  But I do know that
there are two different ways to make the sign of the
cross--all depends on what brand of Catholic you are,
Greek Orthodox or Roman Catholic...

Laura (who has a brother who lived in Greece for two
years, which is why she knows)


=====
FoLC, PEZhead, DarkNNer, JAGaholic, DieHard H/M shipper, J/C shipper

Visit my website! http://bratling.0catch.com

"Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things that a man
needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good and that honor,
courage and virtue mean everything. That power and money mean nothing. That good
always triumphs over evil and I want you to remember this, that love ... true love
never dies."  --Hub, "Secondhand Lions"


------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 2004 19:17:32 -0500
From:    Greer Watson <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Catholic question

Reading today's digest, which seems totally dominated by one issue, I
kept noticing the same thing, over and over:  a distinct tendency to
treat the term "Catholic" (in the religious, Christian sense) as a
monolithic term.  At the back of my mind, I can almost hear my late
father grinding his teeth.  For a man who rejected religon in his
early twenties, he still had a lot of residual opinions on the
subject.  This was something that got him on the raw; so what you are
getting--secondhand--is what I remember of what he said, more than
once, with fair vehemence.
    There are several kinds of Catholicism.
    The Catholic church that, being the biggest, is usually referred
to simply as "Catholic", is actually properly called the *Roman*
Catholic Church.  So called because its ruling bodies and their head,
the Pope, are stationed in Rome.
    There are other Catholic churches.  Specifically (re my father),
the English Catholic Church.  When Henry VIII rejected the Pope, he
started his own church; but, since he didn't embrace Protestantism, it
was also a Catholic church.  The Church of England--aka Anglican or
Episcopalian church--is a Catholic church.  Not Protestant.  It says
so in their Creed, I gather.  (I think it's their "Creed":  it's a
list of their beliefs.)

Mind you, whoever started this thread is writing a story.  Probably RC
practice is what they want to know about.    However, some CofE
churches are closer to RC than others in their practice; these are
called High Church.  From what I recall of visits to England, and
going around looking at church architecture with my Dad, if a CofE
church follows High Church practice, then they also "reserve the
Host", the same way RC churches do.
    CofE churches that are Low Church do *not* reserve the Host.  I
have no idea what they do with the leftovers.

For non-Christians and non-Catholics, some of the things people have
said in their e-mails may be obscure, since they assume you know what
they mean, even when they're explaining what things like
"genuflecting" are.  So let me give a total outsider's explanation, so
far as I can, based on what my Dad used to say.
    The wafer, once blessed, (i.e. "the Host") is treated as if it
really were a piece of the Christian god.  If it isn't used up during
a communion service (and I gather they usually bless more than they
need, since it'd be really embarrassing to run out!), they can't just
throw away the ones left over.  To do so would mean that they would be
tossing God into the garbage.  So, instead, the unused wafers are kept
in a special place--that tabernacle some people have mentioned, I
guess--in the church.
    If you visit a CofE church that "reserves the Host", they'll have
a sign up.  It asks you to be quiet and well behaved (because their
god is actually considered to be in the church while the wafers are
there, and they want you to be polite to him).
    The wafers look a bit like water biscuits, far as I can tell.
I've never actually seen one; but in pictures that's what they look
like.  Maybe someone who is Christian would know.  (Well, I guess they
would.)

No doubt a lot of people reading this are going to be giggling at what
I just wrote.  If you are Catholic (any sort), it's probably really
obvious; and my way of putting it sounds weird, because it's totally
an outsider's explanation.  Just remember:  if you aren't Christian,
you can't be expected to know *any* of this.  So, if someone asks, you
need to really *explain*.

Greer

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 2004 21:13:14 -0500
From:    Deborah Hymon <debh@e.......>
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Catholic question

Yes, I am writing a Christmas story, and I was the one looking for the
answer to one question.  I only needed to know about the signing of the
cross when Nick enters the church. I have my answer, and never meant to turn
this FK forum into a religious discussion.

Thanks for all that helped with getting me a quick answer.  I know that when
I'm writing at weird hours of the night, and need a quick answer, you guys
always come through.

Thanks,
Deborah

>
> Mind you, whoever started this thread is writing a story.  Probably RC
> practice is what they want to know about.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 2004 20:16:40 -0600
From:    eowyn3@j.......
Subject: Missed A Birthday

Hi Y'all!

I missed a birthday back on December 3.   Amy          red@s.......  had a
birthday that day.  Please send her birthday greetings to the address
listed.  I know she would appreciate getting belated greetings.  Thanks!

Terri
eowyn3@j....... or eowyn@w.......
Knightie List Owner, GWDFC, FK X-Stitcher, Proud Survivor of FK Fic Wars
8-11
Texas Knight Dreamers, Keeper of the FK Birthday List

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:55:54 -0800
From:    Aviva Blumenthal <viv11374@y.......>
Subject: Re: What Do You Get A Vampire for Christmas...

--- Linda Hepden <kezia.hepden@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:

> > --- Linda Hepden <kezia.hepden@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:
> >
> >> Let's see, aside of what's already been mentioned...
> >>
> >> > Subscription to a Canadian police magazine
> >>
> >> An inflatable crocodile (whoops!  Sorry, wrong list!)
> >
> > What list is that from?
> >
> Hi, Viv!
>
> Sorry - still way behind with my emails after the recent War.
> Which is
> where the list comes from - it's one of the items Bonnie, the
> Cousinly
> Receptionist, and I end up selling on eekBay after Cousin
> Shelley goes mad
> with LC's credit card.
>
> Cousin Kezia
>
Oh. In case you can tell, I haven't read all the War posts yet.

=====



------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 2004 19:00:31 -0800
From:    Aviva Blumenthal <viv11374@y.......>
Subject: oops

Sorry about the overquoting in that last post. I thought it was
going privately.

=====


------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:24:50 -0700
From:    Micki <Mickilyn@i.......>
Subject: re st nicholas as patron saint

De-lurking briefly...

I had several people ask me where I got that info re St Nicholas being the
patron saint of prostitutes, or asking for more info.  Thought maybe others
might be interest too, so...

My hubby's uncle who had been a monk once told my hubby that as a bit of
trivia.

I went looking for confirmation, and found a really neat website for a bio
on St. Nicholas, explaining why he is a patron saint of so very many. A link
gave me a full list of who he is supposed to be a patron saint of, and
prostitutes are indeed on the list.

If you want more info, I would check these out:
   - bio page:    http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38
   - list of who he's saint of:    http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=45

Back to lurking now...

HUGS!!
-Micki

- - - - - - - -
Can't eat... beef (mad cow)... poultry or eggs (bird flu)...
pork (fear of bird flu infecting piggies)... fish (heavy metals in the
water)...
fruit & veggies (insecticides & herbicides)... guess that leaves CHOCOLATE.
- - - - - - - -
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." - unknown.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:08:22 -0600
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@c.......>
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Catholic question

> Deborah Hymon wrote:

> Yes, I am writing a Christmas story, and I was the one looking for the
> answer to one question.  I only needed to know about the
> signing of the cross when Nick enters the church. I have my answer, and
> never meant to turn this FK forum into a religious discussion.

Aha. You didn't specify you were interested in what one does when one
enters a church. Here's the drill: you dip your right hand in the holy
water font next to the door and bless yourself. These holy water fonts
are basically shallow bowls about 6 inches across that are fastened to
the wall inside most church doors, convenient for worshippers to
access when they enter the church. Most people bless themselves with
the holy water when they enter, then move to a pew and genuflect
before entering the pew.

The mechanics of blessing yourself (Roman Catholic version; as
mentioned elsewhere, the Orthodox church uses a slightly different
maneauvre) is as follows: with your right hand, touch your forehead
(mentally saying, "In the name of the Father"); next, touch your solar
plexus ("and of the Son"); touch the left shoulder ("and of the
Holy"); touch the right shoulder ("Spirit, Amen.").

Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@c.......

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:19:07 -0600
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@c.......>
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Catholic question

> Greer Watson wrote:

>     There are other Catholic churches.  Specifically (re my father),
> the English Catholic Church.  When Henry VIII rejected the Pope, he
> started his own church; but, since he didn't embrace Protestantism, it
> was also a Catholic church.

However, I have never heard a CofE referred to as any sort of Catholic
church. In fact, I think (from what I've read) that CofE members would
bristle at the thought of referring to their church as any sort of
"Papist" church. There was a lot of anti-Roman Catholic sentiment in
England for a very long time.

> called High Church.  From what I recall of visits to England, and
> going around looking at church architecture with my Dad, if a CofE
> church follows High Church practice, then they also "reserve the
> Host", the same way RC churches do.

Another feature you'll find in a High Church is a Lady Chapel, or a
side altar devoted to the Virgin Mary. Low Churches do not revere the
Virgin that way.

>     The wafers look a bit like water biscuits, far as I can tell.
> I've never actually seen one; but in pictures that's what they look
> like.  Maybe someone who is Christian would know.  (Well, I guess they
> would.)

A communion wafer is unleavened bread. Water bisquits are too
thick---a communion wafer is quite thin, almost translucent white. A
better comparison would be like taking a sugar wafer cookie (those tan
rectangular cookies that are wafer/filling/wafer) and separating off
the outside wafer. Communion wafers are not sweet, they are quite
bland in taste. They are typically about 1.5 inches in diameter.

Nancy Kaminski

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:52:06 -0800
From:    Michele C <mobody_62@y.......>
Subject: Re: re st nicholas as patron saint

--- Micki <Mickilyn@i.......> wrote:

> If you want more info, I would check these out:
>    - bio page:
> http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38

This is a cool website, found this passage under
origin of name:

It is said that those who bear Nicholas' name are
gifted and intelligent and will succeed—their
strengths are to be devoted, balanced optimists;
weaknesses, to be somewhat dazed and subject to sudden
shifts in mood.

Also under names:

HUNGARIAN
Miklós

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:50:58 -0500
From:    Erik LeBeau <eriklebeau@h.......>
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Catholic question

I believe that is called genuflection, or to genuflect.

(I'm not Catholic, so I may be confusing this term with something else,
though.)

Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: Forever Knight TV show [mailto:FORKNI-L@l.......]On Behalf Of
Deborah Hymon
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 11:46 PM
To: FORKNI-L@l.......
Subject: HELP!!! Catholic question


I'm really uneducated in the Catholic religion, so I need help. I'm working
on a FK Christmas story.

Is there a term given when a Catholic makes the sign of the cross over their
chest?

Thanks,
Deb

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Dec 2004 06:08:24 -0600
From:    eowyn3@j.......
Subject: Today's Birthday:  December 10

Hi Y'all!

Today is the birthday of:  JudyL.                 JudithL21@a.......

You may send birthday greetings to Judy at the above email address.
Please NOT to the list!

Others who share this birthday:
Kenneth Branagh, Stage Actor
Dan Blocker, TV Actor
John Colicos, TV/Movie/Stage/Soap Actor
Emily Dickinson, Poet
Thomas Hopkins Gallaudet, Educator, Pioneer of educating the deaf

Significant events on this date:
1817, Mississippi was admitted to the Union as the 20th state.
1851, Melvil Dewey, U.S. librarian, born. He devised a system of book
classification used in libraries worldwide.
1901, The king of Sweden distributed the first Nobel Prizes, in
accordance with the will of inventor Alfred Nobel.
1998, Six astronauts jubilantly swung open the doors to the new
international space station.

I hope you have a very Happy Birthday, Judy!

If you would like to be added to the birthday announcements, please send
your name, birthdate (no year needed) and email address to me,
eowyn3@j......., privately, and I'll be glad to add you.

Terri
eowyn3@j....... or eowyn@w.......
GWDFC, FK X-Stitcher, Proud Survivor of FK Fic Wars 8-11, Texas Knight
Dreamers, Knighties List Owner, Keeper of the FK Birthday List

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Dec 2004 05:25:37 -0800
From:    Patty Costantino <pas_20197@y.......>
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Catholic question

Hi,

Delurking for a moment....


Greer Watson <gwatson2@r.......> wrote:

 So, instead, the unused wafers are kept
in a special place--that tabernacle some people have mentioned, I
guess--in the church.


Since I've been a member of the Altar Guild of an American Episcopal Church for
many years, I think I can answer your question.    The unused consecrated
wafers are stored in a cupboard called the ambry, located near the altar.  In my
church, it is located next to the credence table where some of the sacred vessels
are placed during a service.   These blessed wafers are used again during
future services.

Unused unconsecrated wafers are returned to the sacristy, a room in the church
where the sacred vessels are housed, and are used as well in future services.





Patty Costantino


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End of FORKNI-L Digest - 9 Dec 2004 to 10 Dec 2004 (#2004-341)
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