FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 31 Aug 2004 to 1 Sep 2004 (#2004-241)

September 1, 2004

There are 27 messages totalling 727 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. New Threads
  2. Night in Question thoughts (4)
  3. Pompeii and Rome pics...
  4. Reply (10)
  5. Vampiric relationships (6)
  6. Postscript, I hit send too soon lol (3)
  7. Admin: FK vampires and sexual relationships
  8. Vampires and Humanity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 01:38:24 +0100
From:    Luicia <luicia1705@y.......>
Subject: New Threads

I've had an observation jump into my head too later....in Only the Lonely, when
Schanke finds the tape and Nick announces "a Dating Service"; well is it my
overactive imagination or is there some serious, meaningful look shared b/n him
and Nat? The girl seems very flustered after it and its really bugging me now...
ideas/comments?

Is this also a thread for a fic piece?

Amanda Berendt <debrabant_foundation@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
Ok, totally new thread here...
I was just rewatching NiQ and the scene in which LC comes to visit
Nick at the loft got me thinking.


  What is Love : it is the dreams of the young, the memories of the old and the
air by which all others breathe.


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:03:01 -0700
From:    Michele C <mobody_62@y......>
Subject: Re: Night in Question thoughts

--- Janice Cox <jlc_fresno@y......> wrote:

>I don't see how Nick could *not* be at least
> wondering about it! . A very funny
> conversation could have been written, with Nick
> tentatively feeling out their "gay relationship,"


I think a lot of the LC/Nick relationship has Gay overtones

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:14:50 -0500
From:    Becky Hinson <bayoubecky@c.......>
Subject: Re: Pompeii and Rome pics...

> > I would love to say I had been there, but a friend of mine went with her
> > hubby and these are the pics she put up online.
>
> and they can be found where online?
>
> Cousin Kezia

I'm not sure if the link went through or not....  my apologies if it didn't!
http://home.comcast.net/~varvel/Italy/Italy.htm is the address to the pics I
was referring to!

:)
~Cousin Becky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:21:32 -0700
From:    Michele C <mobody_62@y......>
Subject: Re: Night in Question thoughts

--- Michele C <mobody_62@y......> wrote:

> --- Janice Cox <jlc_fresno@y......> wrote:
>
> >I don't see how Nick could *not* be at least
> >wondering about it! . A very funny
> > conversation could have been written, with Nick
> > tentatively feeling out their "gay relationship,"
>
>

How about that for an incomplete thought?  Thats what
I get for hitting the return key too hard.

I think a lot of the LC/Nick relationship has Gay
overtones, but in 1994-96 television was not quite
ready for openly gay characters.  Not that I am saying
that Nick and Lacroix were gay, but that the
implication could be there.  Contrast it with Buffy
just a few years later having gay characters and even
showing kissing etc.  How far television has come.

Alot of FK premise borrows heavily from the Anne Rice
Vampires.  If you read Interview with the vampire, the
relationship of Louis/Lestat or even Louis and Armand
has very homosexual overtones.  Yeah I think it could
have been a really funny scene.

Mo

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:48:36 -0700
From:    Megan Hull <mistrydder@y......>
Subject: Re: Night in Question thoughts

>Amanda Berendt wrote: This man comes to visit saying that he is "much more"
>than the doctor from the hospital and that they have a "very special
>relationship" adn so on. I started thinking...Man, Nick has got to be wondering
"Am I gay?"

On the other hand, he was, at this point, VERY sure of his connectedness to
Natalie.  Can we say 'confusion'?  He looked to me like he wasn't sure he
believed LaCroix; he remembered that he was in love with Natalie, would he also
remember disliking LaCroix, at least on a gut-feeling level?

As for heterosexual vs. homosexual relationships, I always got the feeling that
vampires didn't particularly care, or even recognize the difference.

                   -Megan


"Eternal nights too short,
How quickly melt away,
With all the love we shared once,
Forever in a Day."


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:57:06 -0700
From:    Sherri <bloodroses_thorn@y......>
Subject: Re: Night in Question thoughts

--- Michele C <mobody_62@y......> wrote:
> I think a lot of the LC/Nick relationship has Gay
> overtones, but in 1994-96 television was not quite
> ready for openly gay characters.

Well, I for one welcome all UF-ish thoughts with open
arms.  And I would, of course, have to agree.  Of
course, I think everyone's gay so I don't know how
much weight my opinion holds, but I too wondered about
Nick's relationship with the General in Night in
Question.

I think relationships are different for vampires than
for us mere mortals, however.  I know alot of vampires
are written as at least partially homosexual (I
believe someone mentioned Anne Rice, already... and
there's also the more recent case of the vampires in
the Anita Blake novels) but I think that that is
probably a very narrow-minded viewpoint.

When vampires drain their victims, at least in FK,
they take a part of their victim into themselves...
witness Francesca's line in "Francesca", when she
tells Nick that if he were to drink the blood of the
cellist, he would have his gift, at least for a while.
 What does sex matter to someone who can BECOME the
person they are with, simply by sharing blood?

Also, we have to take into account the times our boys
were born in.  Homosexuality was not looked down upon
during the Roman Empire, and someone of LaCroix's rank
would surely have had experienced the services of an
"army wife" at least once in his career.  As for
Nick... well, the Crusades were a different (read
Catholic) time, and so he probably would not have
easily given in to the General's demands.  But they
were together for a long time... and Uncle is very
persuasive....

Just my thoughts.  I'm off to think happy UF-ish
thoughts for a few hours.  Thank you so much for
bringing this up.

-sherri-neko

=====
-If you belong to nobody, you are nobody.
-Torture is not what you do to someone, but what you have them do for you.
-Abuse is more than power, it is intimacy.


------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:24:38 -0400
From:    Cheryl P <fknight420@c.......>
Subject: Reply

Nick could never be gay, because of his past history and LaCroix always
there.  No way.


He was brought across in1228
I was brought across in 1992
I will always be his Forever Knight
www.ForeverKnight.5u.com.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:17:27 EDT
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Reply

In a message dated 9/1/04 4:31:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
fknight420@c....... writes:


> Nick could never be gay, because of his past history and LaCroix always
> there.  No way

Huh? I'm not quite sure what you mean. If anything, he'd be bi because he
does love the ladies, too.<g> And although we are talking fictional characters
so they are however the writers write them (and that includes how the individual
fanfic writer see them), I think LaCroix always being there would make the
possibility a bit stronger.

In other words, there's not right or wrong answer to this scenerio. ;-D

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:28:01 -0500
From:    Becky Hinson <bayoubecky@c.......>
Subject: Re: Reply

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cheryl P" <fknight420@c.......>


> Nick could never be gay, because of his past history and LaCroix always
> there.  No way.

Are you sure you're being objective about this?  I mean, are you saying this
because you can't see GWD and NB in rolse that demand any sort of homosexual
interaction, or because you can't see the characters themselves as such?
And if that's the case, then why not?  Like it was stated before, Lacroix
lived during a time when it was not unheard of for men in power to have some
sort of homosexual relationship.

I'm not UF inclined, but after seeing NiQ, and seeing that particular part,
yeah, I can see where the UFers would run with that.  LOL

:)
~Cousin Becky

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:25:22 -0400
From:    Cheryl P <fknight420@c.......>
Subject: Re: Reply

GROSS.  There father and son, friends, brothers.  Don't even go there.
STOP.  Stay safe.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:35:07 -0400
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Reply

Cheryl wrote:

**GROSS.  There father and son, friends, brothers.  Don't even go there.
STOP.**

In vampire terms. The same with Janette. Why is it okay for Nick to have
OBVIOUSLY had sexual relations with her, and my guess would be LaCroix did as
well (I can't think of a specific indication, but I'd assume they did), but it
isn't okay for LaCroix and Nick to have?

Because it would be a same sex relationship?

Are you saying that is gross? If so, then I guess a number of people on this
list are gross, so I hope that isn't what you mean.

--Libs
Proud member and list monitor of the Rainbow Knights

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:52:09 -0700
From:    Amanda Berendt <debrabant_foundation@y......>
Subject: Re: Reply

--- Cheryl P <fknight420@c.......> wrote:
> GROSS.  There father and son, friends, brothers.  Don't even go
> there.  STOP.  Stay safe.


Well, all of these relationships are more fluid in the vampire
existance than they are in mortals.  Yes, in a way LC is Nick's
father, but it isn't genetic or anything.
If you go with the father/son rationalization then one could say that
Nick and Janette should not have anykind of physical relationship
since they would be termed as brother and sister.
So.....
-Amanda

=====
"This thing... man... whatever it is...evil may have created it, left its mark
on it, but evil does not rule it.  So I cannot kill it."  - Gabriel Van Helsing
http://www.darksideoftheglass.com


------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:59:52 -0400
From:    Katherine DeVries <banshee1@t.......>
Subject: Vampiric relationships

Hey, people,

I always got the impression that the relationships between vampires were
fluid things, not fixed by the rules that govern mortal pairings. I
mean, Nick went from being Janette's lover to her husband to her sire in
a sense, right? I caught more than one intimation that Lacroix had been
with Janette at some point in the past and there was no hint of incest
in it. So mortal mores and inhibitions do not seem to apply to vampire
interactions, right?

I'm not UFish by nature, but you'd have to be in serious denial to
ignore the completely unsubtle interaction between Lacroix and Nicky
boy. I guess I always thought that vampires made connections based on
attraction to the person, not specifically their gender.

Either way you see it, the show can be taken a number fo ways and is
subject to a number of interpretations. On another list I frequent, the
rules on this matter are clear: You may not like a pairing, but you
cannot disrespect other people's right to prefer that pairing. On this
matter, I am not divided at all: It all Lacroix and so it's ALL good.
lol

As Always,
Kat
http://www.fanfiction.net/~enigmasphinx

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:02:50 -0400
From:    Katherine DeVries <banshee1@t.......>
Subject: Postscript, I hit send too soon lol

Oh, and I always got the impression that Lacroix was so utterly appalled
by Divia's obsession because they shared a mortal connection before the
vampire one.  He was not able to discount their original bond and so the
plans Divia made were revolting to him. I would value your opinions on
this, should anyone care to reply.
As Always,
Kat
http://www.fanfiction.net/~enigmasphinx

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:02:37 -0400
From:    Cheryl P <fknight420@c.......>
Subject: Re: Reply

Nick and LaCroix, have on an occasion, had exchange blood between them, but
That's to feed a hunger, not sexual, maybe its me and I don't see it that
way.  I see a father helping his son and in reverse.  With Janette, I do
sense a sexual flare there between Nick and Janette.  They were lovers at
one time and now is LaCroix as the father of both Brother helping sister, I
don't know maybe its me and I'm nuts.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:13:09 -0400
From:    Cheryl P <fknight420@c.......>
Subject: Re: Reply

True, it's me then.  I just cannot picture that kind of scene.  I look at
them as a family picture even though their vampires.  I feel vampires are
more human then us.  They were not genetic related but they were very close
each other, good and bad.  They did everything for each other.  That's why I
am very close to vampires then anyone else, weird I know but true.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:15:48 -0400
From:    Cheryl P <fknight420@c.......>
Subject: Re: Postscript, I hit send too soon lol

I forgot that, Divia was his natural daughter and when she brought him
across she told him they could be lovers and LaCroix nearly lost lunch, to
be polite.  He could never.  He would give blood to save his children, like
when Nick was in the hospital with the head wound.  Even though Nick staked
LaCroix, he still loved him and cared for him.  I prefer vampires, there
more human then us.  Stay safe.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:17:30 -0700
From:    Amanda Berendt <debrabant_foundation@y......>
Subject: Re: Postscript, I hit send too soon lol

--- Katherine DeVries <banshee1@t.......> wrote:

> Oh, and I always got the impression that Lacroix was so utterly
> appalled by Divia's obsession because they shared a mortal
> connection before the vampire one.

Yes, I could see that.  She was his mortal daughter and he had that
as their relationship before he was brought across. So that would
color any future relationship he would have with her.  But he had no
such relationship with Nick, Janette, or any other 'children' - at
least the ones we know about.

-Amanda

=====
"This thing... man... whatever it is...evil may have created it, left its mark
on it, but evil does not rule it.  So I cannot kill it."  - Gabriel Van Helsing
http://www.darksideoftheglass.com


------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:18:30 -0400
From:    Cheryl P <fknight420@c.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

True, everyone has their own view and I truly respect that, no doubt.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:24:54 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Admin: FK vampires and sexual relationships

First of all, I want to commend the list for not smoldering into flames while
discussing this subject.  I appreciate this since of course homosexuality does
draw strong opinions.  Just to be sure we're all on the same page, I need to
remind us that on Forkni-l we do not express negative feelings or opinions
against homosexuality, for the same reason we don't express negative feelings
about religions (or not being religious), ethnicity or anything else that might
hurt another list member's feelings.  We're a family and that means taking care
with each other.

Please note that this does not mean we can't discuss whether or not we think any
of the characters may be be gay or bi, or may have same sex relationships, as
long as the discussion is in all-ages terms. We do have minors reading the list.
It just means we don't make value judgements on Forkni-l.

McLisa,
listowner, Forkni-l
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:45:02 -0400
From:    Katherine DeVries <banshee1@t.......>
Subject: Vampires and Humanity

Hey, Cheryl,

I don't quite understand the references that you make to Vampires being
"more human" than the rest of us. According to Lacroix, Nick's inability to
detach from humanity was his great weakness. Lacroix didn't have that to
contend with. If vampires were "more human" than humans, they would be prey
to all our baser instincts as well as our exalted ones, making them just as
petty or cruel or possibly saintly or benevolent just as mortals are.

My personal view of vampires is this: one step higher on the food chain.
They live immortal lives but they are still tainted with their mortal
beginnings and cannot help but see the world though the bias of their
upbringing. Some are good, some are bad, some are almost elemental in the
distillation of their vampirism, but they are still working from the same
basic beginnings: mortality. I don't see why you think they are better than
people since they were people once too and immortality doesn't equal
enlightenment in any equation.

As Always,
Kat

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:08:49 -0500
From:    Becky Hinson <bayoubecky@c.......>
Subject: Re: Reply

It may be gross, but that was a way of life at that point, and that's what
people are trying to convey.  It's a CHARACTER who was born and lived at
this point in time.

I think what I asked was a valid question.  Do you think it's so horribly
gross because you're only imagining GWD and NB and not the characters
themselves?

:)
~Becky

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cheryl P" <fknight420@c.......>


> GROSS.  There father and son, friends, brothers.  Don't even go there.
> STOP.  Stay safe.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:39:19 EDT
From:    Gaelin Wade <GaelinWade@a.......>
Subject: Re: Reply

I've thought about this topic as I've dealt with the character development in
my own fic.  And while I can allow the possibility on the part of LC, I'm not
sure I can of Nick.  While I believe that relationships in the vampire world
are fluid and perhaps hedonistic in a sense, I think that the vampires carry
over certain elements from their human lives.

Given the mores and values of LC's human life, he would see no problem with
homosexual relationships.  But would Nick?  Nick was a human child of the
medievel period, the time of the crusades. The height of an (almost) all-powerful
catholic church. Would the mores and values that Nick grew up with allow him
enter in to a homosexual relationship?

And part of it about something else too.  Thoughout history, until recent
times, it has been  "recognized" or whatever you want to call is for "men of
power" can have some sort of homosexual relationships without "damage" to their
reputations as long as the relationship was  with someone younger and perhaps
somewhat effeminate.

I spoke to a friend a couple of years ago about this. (Not sure how the topic
came up)  He's a professor specializing in Latin American sociology.  He
mentioned something similar in that  (today) it was okay (without getting
graphic) to be the "Top" but never "the bottom." The "Top" wouldn't necessarily
be considered homosexual, but the "bottom"  would definately be, and ridiculed.

Anyhow, my point is, in a relationship with LC, Nick would more than likely
be "bottom." Would his medieval  mores and values allow him to accept such a
position?  Well, sure, anything could happen. But somehow, I can't see this
being the case.

Gaelin



In a message dated 9/1/2004 7:44:38 AM Central Standard Time,
bayoubecky@c....... writes:
> Like it was stated before, Lacroix lived during a time when it was not
> unheard of for men in power to have some sort of homosexual relationship.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:05:23 -0700
From:    Johnsie <johnsierp1@y......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

The way I saw FK vamps was that the blood they drank had an effect on them.
They gained some of the skills, like playing the violin, and some of the traits
of the person, including an aspect of their sexuality.  This is part of why
carouche were so dispised; Screed took on aspect of a rat that revolted others.
Nick drinking cow blood was going to make him....  placid.  LaCroix would
obviously have hated that!

A male vampire drinking from female victims would, in my opinion, gain some
aspects of the female psyche, including some of the sexual interest.  This is
why some of the FK vamps seemed to be bi, or the females acted in such
aggressive manner - they had enough testosterone from having drunk from male
victims.  Vachon drank mainly from babes, so he had great hair..... ;)
joke...joke... stop throwing things unless they are shineypretty!

Well, that my take on it and I hope you appreciate the lack of Screedspeak.
wunt heezee ta resist.

'ugs ta hall!,

Johnsie, Leader o' the 'Pack

Katherine DeVries <banshee1@t.......> wrote:
Hey, people,

I always got the impression that the relationships between vampires were
fluid things, not fixed by the rules that govern mortal pairings. I
mean, Nick went from being Janette's lover to her husband to her sire in
a sense, right? I caught more than one intimation that Lacroix had been
with Janette at some point in the past and there was no hint of incest
in it. So mortal mores and inhibitions do not seem to apply to vampire
interactions, right?

I'm not UFish by nature, but you'd have to be in serious denial to
ignore the completely unsubtle interaction between Lacroix and Nicky
boy. I guess I always thought that vampires made connections based on
attraction to the person, not specifically their gender.

Either way you see it, the show can be taken a number fo ways and is
subject to a number of interpretations. On another list I frequent, the
rules on this matter are clear: You may not like a pairing, but you
cannot disrespect other people's right to prefer that pairing. On this
matter, I am not divided at all: It all Lacroix and so it's ALL good.
lol

As Always,
Kat
http://www.fanfiction.net/~enigmasphinx


------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:33:25 -0700
From:    Stacy <theknightcallsmyname@y......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

>>>The way I saw FK vamps was that the blood they drank had an effect on them.
They gained some of the skills, like playing the violin, and some of the traits
of the person, including an aspect of their sexuality.

This is a very interesting theory.  Though I seem to remember that in Francesca
(sp?), it was implied that the effect (like gaining the ability to play the
violin) would dissipate after a few hours.  It's been a long time since I
watched that episode, and I don't have it downloaded yet, so I can't check to
see if I'm right.  Anybody else know if this is correct?

Stacy


DarkNN'er, Faithful
theknightcallsmyname@y......
http://www.geocities.com/theknightcallsmyname/index2.html
YIM: theknightcallsmyname

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:47:27 -0400
From:    Katherine DeVries <banshee1@t.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

Wow, Johnsie,

I never thought it that way. I like that idea though. Nick making himself
placid would definitely be repugnant to Lacroix, I suppose, like mixing
battery acid in champagne. Whatever quality drew Lacroix to the knight would
be perhaps unbearably altered by the constant influx of cow blood... Small
wonder the sire didn't approve.

This begs another consideration: The prey that a vampire selects must be
chosen for more than food value, right? There must be something that
attracts the vampire's sense of esthetics, not just their momentary hunger.
In order to bring their victim across (purposefully not accidentally) there
must be more again, to prompt the vampire's desire to prolong their life.

Food for thought (pun only marginally intended) :)
as always,
Kat

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:03:05 -0400
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

It was written:

**The prey that a vampire selects must be
chosen for more than food value, right? There must be something that
attracts the vampire's sense of esthetics,**

That's a good point. After all, Screed dropped the ordinary sewer rat for a
nice, shiny pretty white rat, the remains of which now reside in my nightstand
drawer (well, where else can I keep it? <g>)

Of course, I also love Johnsie's theory and it is something I've pondered
meselfishness. Especially since rats (thus Screed) have certain appetites that
are (how can I phrase this PG?) ... pretty heavy besides the appetite for what
they eat.

It certainly explains a couple of my adult fan fic stories, doesn't h'it?

--Libs

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 31 Aug 2004 to 1 Sep 2004 (#2004-241)
**************************************************************