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FORKNI-L Digest - 14 May 2003 to 15 May 2003 (#2003-141)

Thu, 15 May 2003

There are 17 messages totalling 678 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. the trouble with mortality (9)
  2. GWD on Highlander
  3. Announcing.... (3)
  4. Forever Knight Crew Jacket
  5. Admin: Yes, FK fan fic and beta-ing are on topic
  6. Vampire memory loss
  7. congrads

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 14 May 2003 16:01:12 -0700
From:    FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@y......>
Subject: Re: the trouble with mortality

Oh, it was you who wrote it! I love that fic. I came
accross it on Fanfiction.net and ended up printing it
out so I could read it at home while I didn't have
regular 'net access. I kept meaning to figure out who
wrote it so I could tell them I liked it. *ponders*
Maybe I'll pull it out tonight and read it
again....I've lost track of how many times I've been
through it LOL.

Mel

>
> I'm the only person who answered the Memory
> Challenge, with my story, "Deja Vu"
> (available on my website and on the
> www.fkfanfic.com). The originator of the
> challenge never finished her story---much to my
> regret, because the parts she
> did post were quite intriguing.
>
> Nancy Kaminski
> --
> nancykam@a.......
> www.nancykam.com


=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-unknown
FK:NickNatPacker, Knight of the Cross,Knightie, Natpacker/Highlander:Duncan
Flag-Waver/Due South Fan/Tracker Fan/Angel Fan/Port Charles Fan

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 14 May 2003 16:03:31 -0700
From:    FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@y......>
Subject: Re: the trouble with mortality

OOps. Sorry about that. I got a bit overeager there
and hit post while it still had too many lines.

*goes off to write "I will not have more than four
lines in my replies" about 400 times on the virtual
chalkboard*

Mel

=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-unknown
FK:NickNatPacker, Knight of the Cross,Knightie, Natpacker/Highlander:Duncan
Flag-Waver/Due South Fan/Tracker Fan/Angel Fan/Port Charles Fan


------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 14 May 2003 19:17:06 -0400
From:    Mary Kroll <marykroll@i.......>
Subject: Re: GWD on Highlander

If I'm matching up the episodes title with the fuzzy picture in my brain (which
is about a 50/50 shot), this is one of my fave eps of Highlander, but that
could be attributable to GWD's mere presence.  It's a good one.  (I have a silly
anecdote involving that ep and a beach vacation... maybe another time.)  I won't
drop any spoilers, but I will say that it smacks of his performance in that ep
of KungFu: The Legend Continues.


Mary Kroll
Wild Heaven Farm
Richmond, VA
http://wildheaven.theshoppe.com
</br>
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -George Carlin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 01:05:24 GMT
From:    KC Smith <tigrlady2u@j.....>
Subject: Announcing....

 Kryshana Catherine Dempsey (aka Shana) & Christopher David Bennett announce
the birth of their first child, Natalie Catherine Bennett. Born on April 20th,
2003 at 12:26 a.m (if she'd only been two minutes later...).  Natalie weighed in
at 4lbs 6oz and was 16 and one quarter inches long (she was born a month
early).
 Congratulations can be sent to Shana and Chris at wldthngwthfngs@h.......
 I'll post the pic of Natalie as soon as I can get it scanned.


KC Smith
tigrlady2u@j.....
Nick/Natpacker with dark tendencies.
"I've never met a chocolate I didn't like."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 14 May 2003 20:39:14 -0700
From:    "Susan M. Garrett" <susanmgarrett@e.......>
Subject: Forever Knight Crew Jacket

Financial circumstances have reached a point when I need to sell my crew
jacket.  It's a large and it's on Ebay.  My Ebay user name is susangarrett.

Good luck!

susanmgarrett@e.......  -- EVER Faithful Ravenette.
  FK Fiction - http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2167/fiction.htm
"Friends help you move.  Real friends help you move bodies."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 14 May 2003 22:53:49 -0500
From:    Monica Rodriguez <doctormon@m.......>
Subject: Re: the trouble with mortality

Sierra Mayberry <BlueFaeryMagick@a.......> wrote:
>a vampire,  becomes mortal--however he loses his memory too, only
>remembering when he was human, so it isn't like he remembers what he's
>lost.  <snip> and i'm wondering what else i haven't considered.  So far,
>i've covered eating unrecognized food, being afraid of things like
>electricity, so on.
>(this person is older than modern conveniences).

I've always found this area intriguing. I remember that story, too, when
Nick becomes mortal and only remembers his mortal life. I remember him being
startled by plastic wrap, and Natalie struggling to speak what French she
knew, although his was a much older version (though I beleive people on the
list have agreed that Nicholas wouldn't have even spoken French, at least as
a first language, but Brabantish, or somehting Germanic/Dutch?). I also
can't remember the title. Sorry!

Anyway, I have read a few FK stories with vampires becoming mortal, and
there are usually a few things I nitpick on. One, aside from eating
unrecognizable food, there's the issue of the person's stomach attempting to
digest after so long with nothing to do (unless you go by the theory that
vamps digest their blood-meals. Was this ever made clear on FK?) Could they
actually eat anything? I don't know, just throwing it out there.

Another issue, besides the physical adjustments to mortal life in the
20/21C, would be the mental adjustments. Not only were habits of speech and
behavior different a hundred, not to mention five hundred years ago or more,
but ways of thinking, of seeing the world were different. The way men
treated women and vice versa. What one expected from another, how they
judged them (for example, along class lines). How a person expected the
world to work on a basic level. These could be radically different in a
person raised a few hundred years ago. This is on top of the shock of seeing
not just electricity, but an entire world the person doesn't recognize, and
it's certainly a surprise they survive the transition.

Take Nick for example. If he became mortal *and* didn't remember the last
800 years, leaving him entirely a man of the 12C, he would not only be
speaking an entirely different tongue, but his behavior would be, possibly,
radically different. Perhaps he would be incredibly formal with Natalie. And
he might not understand how Natalie was behaving towards him. I don't know
what these differences might be. I just think that our concepts of ourselves
and how we see the world have been anything but fixed. They change with
time, and 800 years ago, the world was a different place.

On the other hand, I think you'd have to have extensive knowledge of the
time period in which you were placing a character to get a good feeling for
how they might act and think, so this might be next to impossible to do
(except for someone overflowing with knowledge such as our resident
encyclopedia, McLisa ;-) ). For what it's worth, it's always something I
wanted to bring up.

On a similar note, something I have wanted to mention for a while but
couldn't respond to the original post at the time, is about *im*mortality.
Has anyone considered the possiblity that living for hundreds of years
would, even for our vamps who seem to take to it so well, possibly drive one
a bit... batty? LaCroix is the one who makes me think of this. Living as
long as he has is actually unfathomalbe to me. To live an entire lifetime,
then to have another to look forward to may be wonderful. This would likely
be enjoyable for a few lifetimes. I wonder if - this is making a giant leap
and saying "if this was true" - immortality would be "survivable." I have a
sneaking suspicion it might drive some quite insane. On the other hand, it
makes it much more understandable why someone like LC, who aims to be hard
as steel and shut off to his emotions, would seek out companions. But even
given the two he made (made to stay with him specifically), after say 500
years, I think the routine would start to get to them.

And taking that thought further, if LC (and others) were to find it
survivable after all, I think that they wouldn't be quite as we see them on
FK.  After all, we usually do consider our older people wiser than most of
us. Most of us learn from our mistakes, and by the time we're rather old,
we've changed our behavior accordingly, learned a trick or two to getting
through life. What I"m getting at is that I find it hard to believe that
Nick would really stay as he is - *never* learning from his mistakes,
constantly repeating them. He continues to expect LC to treat him
differently, to see him in a way LC never has. The same could be said,
though, for LaCroix. He didn't do much 'evolving' from who he was 2000 years
ago. Ever the Roman General. And while I could understand that how anyone is
raised will stay with you for the rest of your life (not unchangeably, but
it stays with you), however long that may be, I don't think he could remain
so emotionally cut off from himself and others if he were to survive 2
millenia. I'm certainly not trying to sum up these two complex characters in
these few sentences; these are just aspects of them I feel like nitpicking
on.

Well, these were my musings. Sorry for going on and on. It's been ages since
I posted. So maybe I'm making up for it. Any thoughts, answers, ridiculing?
;-)

monica
always luscious lucius lover
We are each other, eternally.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 14:22:24 +0200
From:    Doris Weiss <dorisweiss_2000@y......>
Subject: Re: the trouble with mortality

I was just wondering about why a vampire who becomes
mortal should lose his/her memories at all. At least
in the FK universe they didn't lose their memory of
their mortal days either.

Just my two cents,


Luc

=====
"Even eternal life is too short to wait for a table." - Uncle -

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 05:40:47 -0700
From:    Carla Martinek <copper@m.......>
Subject: Re: Announcing....

--- KC Smith <tigrlady2u@j.....> wrote:
>  Kryshana Catherine Dempsey (aka Shana) &
> Christopher David Bennett announce the birth of
> their first child, Natalie Catherine Bennett.

Congrats!  Hope everyone is doing well.

Now if that isn't the ultimate FK-related name!

-Carla
copper@m.......

=====
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a test of the emergency signature system. Were this an actual
signature, you would see amusing mottos, disclaimers, a zillion net
addresses, or edifying philisophical statements. This is only a test.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 14:24:17 +0100
From:    Tracy Gooding <t.gooding@u.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: Yes, FK fan fic and beta-ing are on topic

Quoting Lisa McDavid <mclisa@M.......>:

<<Back when Princess Diana died, I had to tell posters not
to talk about it unless they could relate her death directly to FK.  I too
was shocked and grieved, but Princess Diana had nothing to do with FK. That
meant posts about her death were off-topic.>>

Back in 1997, FK was shown in the UK on Sunday nights on Sky1.  On the fateful
day, the listed ep, 'Near Death' was postponed (because of the reference to a
young woman being killed in a car crash?), and instead of advertisements, Sky1
just had a still portrait of Princess Diana on the screen...  So I can date my
tape precisely - this is why I need DVD's of the series.

Tracy Gooding

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 13:27:18 +0000
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@A.......>
Subject: Re: the trouble with mortality

Doris wrote:

> I was just wondering about why a vampire who becomes
> mortal should lose his/her memories at all. At least
> in the FK universe they didn't lose their memory of
> their mortal days either.

In the case of the Memory Challenge story I wrote, the memory loss was a side
effect of the drug that Natalie used to cure Nick, combined with his intense
psychological need to put his vampirism behind him.

In general, however, I wouldn't think that becoming mortal again would cause a
vampire to lose his memories.

Nancy Kaminski
--
nancykam@a.......
www.nancykam.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 13:31:44 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@M.......>
Subject: Vampire memory loss

As Doris observed, FK vampires don't seem to lose their memories. You could try
hitting some sort of head wound like the one that gave Nick temporary amnesia
in Night in Questtion.

McLisa, whose autographed script with changes-inserts from Bridging the Knight
somehow got onto the floor and was sprayed on by a cat. If you needed any proof
that I am a hopeless cat person, I only thought briefly about Fedexing her to
Screed for dinner. :)

mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 14:21:45 -0400
From:    Emily Lacey <laceye@e.......>
Subject: Re: the trouble with mortality

>On a similar note, something I have wanted to mention for a while but
>couldn't respond to the original post at the time, is about *im*mortality.
>Has anyone considered the possiblity that living for hundreds of years
>would, even for our vamps who seem to take to it so well, possibly drive one
>a bit... batty?

Good point. It made me think. I'm 49 and the world has changed
enormously in my life-time. I think of my Grandmother who saw
aviation from the Wright brothers to Neil Armstrong on the moon. And
I remember suffering with a sliderule and now revel in the use of a
"throw-away" (cheap) calculator that does more than the first models
that came out. Not to even think of the computer changes in the past
10-20 years.

At the beginning of the character's lifetimes, news traveled by "word
of mouth". Mostly troubadors who turned the news of the day into
songs, and others who traveled-I would think priests, tinkers and
vagabonds. Change was slower and more easily adapted to.

>LaCroix is the one who makes me think of this. To live an entire lifetime,
>then to have another to look forward to may be wonderful. This would likely
>be enjoyable for a few lifetimes.

I think it would be pretty nifty. Just think--time (and eventually
money) to do/learn/experience anything you got interested in...and
those interests would change as the world around you changed. A
lifetime to learn/master music, a lifetime of quilt designing, a
lifetime of learning and building anything that looked interesting--a
lifetime to make sense of politics, hard science, mathematics. And
think of the fun you'd have as an anthropologist!

>After all, we usually do consider our older people wiser than most of
>us.

Isn't this something of the culture you're raised in? The Oriental
culture treasures their older people. I don't see the same value
given in the more Western cultures.

>Most of us learn from our mistakes, and by the time we're rather old,
>we've changed our behavior accordingly, learned a trick or two to getting
>through life.

OH NO! I'm supposed to LEARN from my mistakes? That's what I'm doing
wrong! <G> Seriously, some of us are slower learners than others. I'd
like to think if I were 800 or 2000 I may have learned some things.
However, I think in Nick's case (specifically) that his behavior
wasn't so much a product of not learning...it was more of a matter of
he was living (trying to live) by a different standard than others of
his culture. What seems like continually making the same mistake over
and over, is simply trying to adapt to a different ideology--and it
doesn't always work, as the ideal he has keeps changing as the world
changes around him.

>And while I could understand that how anyone is
>raised will stay with you for the rest of your life (not unchangeably, but
>it stays with you), however long that may be,

Yeah, someone once told me that the Catholic church used to say "give
me a child for the first seven years of his life and he will be ours
forever".

>  I don't think he could remain
>so emotionally cut off from himself and others if he were to survive 2
>millenia.

Hmmmm. Maybe it is dependant on the personality of the person. I know
that even in 49 short years, I HAVE to have time ALONE. And not just
an hour here and there, I often take a week or two and barely come
out of my room...and then there are times that I am barely at
home...out with friends and doing things.

>Well, these were my musings. Sorry for going on and on. It's been ages since
>I posted. So maybe I'm making up for it. Any thoughts, answers, ridiculing?

Thanks for your musings. I enjoyed reading them...and dared to answer
with some of my musings.

Back to lurking...

--
Emily Lacey
old: laceye@a.......
new: laceye@e.......

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 15:32:33 EDT
From:    Judith Lieberman <JudithL21@a.......>
Subject: Re: Announcing....

Congrats to Shanna and to KC on Natalie's birth.  Now if you ever have a boy,
Nick & Nat will be together in one family.  JudyL

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 15:35:08 EDT
From:    Judith Lieberman <JudithL21@a.......>
Subject: Re: the trouble with mortality

Has anyone mentioned that the story where Nick loses his memory when he
regains his mortality is Nancy Kaminski wonderful  "Deju Vu".  Actually he just
reverted back to the day he was brought over.  Once again a knight in 1228
speaking only medieval French.  JudyL

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 12:36:32 -0700
From:    Cheryl Pillsbury <gerdavies2000@y......>
Subject: congrads

KC wrote that had a new addition.

So I'm here to say congrads and enjoy the precious gift.  They grow up so fast.

As for the vampires and memory loss.  They do loose their memory very slowly
because their demon half takes over.  They remember but not everything.   I think
in Nick's case, he would remember, so it won't happen again.  You think?
Cheryl Pillsbury
gerdavies2000@y......


He was brought across in 1228
I was brought across in 1992
For we will be Forever Knight

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 12:55:03 -0700
From:    Viv <viv11374@y......>
Subject: Re: the trouble with mortality

--- Emily Lacey <laceye@e.......> wrote:
> >On a similar note, something I have wanted to mention for a while but
> >couldn't respond to the original post at the time, is about *im*mortality.
> >Has anyone considered the possiblity that living for hundreds of years
> >would, even for our vamps who seem to take to it so well, possibly drive one
> >a bit... batty?
>
> Good point. It made me think. I'm 49 and the world has changed
> enormously in my life-time. I think of my Grandmother who saw
> aviation from the Wright brothers to Neil Armstrong on the moon. And
> I remember suffering with a sliderule and now revel in the use of a
> "throw-away" (cheap) calculator that does more than the first models
> that came out. Not to even think of the computer changes in the
> past 10-20 years.
>
> At the beginning of the character's lifetimes, news traveled by "word
> of mouth". Mostly troubadors who turned the news of the day into
> songs, and others who traveled-I would think priests, tinkers and
> vagabonds. Change was slower and more easily adapted to.
>
> >LaCroix is the one who makes me think of this. To live an entire lifetime,
> >then to have another to look forward to may be wonderful. This would likely
> >be enjoyable for a few lifetimes.
>
> I think it would be pretty nifty. Just think--time (and eventually
> money) to do/learn/experience anything you got interested in...and
> those interests would change as the world around you changed. A
> lifetime to learn/master music, a lifetime of quilt designing, a
> lifetime of learning and building anything that looked interesting--a
> lifetime to make sense of politics, hard science, mathematics. And
> think of the fun you'd have as an anthropologist!
>
> >After all, we usually do consider our older people wiser than most of
> >us.
>
> Isn't this something of the culture you're raised in? The Oriental
> culture treasures their older people. I don't see the same value
> given in the more Western cultures.
>
> >Most of us learn from our mistakes, and by the time we're rather old,
> >we've changed our behavior accordingly, learned a trick or two to getting
> >through life.
>
> OH NO! I'm supposed to LEARN from my mistakes? That's what I'm doing
> wrong! <G> Seriously, some of us are slower learners than others. I'd
> like to think if I were 800 or 2000 I may have learned some things.
> However, I think in Nick's case (specifically) that his behavior
> wasn't so much a product of not learning...it was more of a matter of
> he was living (trying to live) by a different standard than others of
> his culture. What seems like continually making the same mistake over
> and over, is simply trying to adapt to a different ideology--and it
> doesn't always work, as the ideal he has keeps changing as the world
> changes around him.
>
> >And while I could understand that how anyone is
> >raised will stay with you for the rest of your life (not unchangeably, but
> >it stays with you), however long that may be,
>
> Yeah, someone once told me that the Catholic church used to say "give
> me a child for the first seven years of his life and he will be ours
> forever".
>
> >  I don't think he could remain
> >so emotionally cut off from himself and others if he were to survive 2
> >millenia.
>
> Hmmmm. Maybe it is dependant on the personality of the person. I know
> that even in 49 short years, I HAVE to have time ALONE. And not just
> an hour here and there, I often take a week or two and barely come
> out of my room...and then there are times that I am barely at
> home...out with friends and doing things.
>
> >Well, these were my musings. Sorry for going on and on. It's been ages since
> >I posted. So maybe I'm making up for it. Any thoughts, answers, ridiculing?
>
> Thanks for your musings. I enjoyed reading them...and dared to answer
> with some of my musings.
>
> Back to lurking...
>
> --
> Emily Lacey
> old: laceye@a.......
> new: laceye@e.......


=====
Viv

Don't annoy the crazy person

Life's a witch and then you fly

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 15 May 2003 13:01:49 -0700
From:    Viv <viv11374@y......>
Subject: Re: the trouble with mortality

Please note that what I just sent before was sent by accident. I
did not intend to reply to this post, let alone to send one that
quoted the whole thing. Please don't be mad, Listmommy.

=====
Viv

Don't annoy the crazy person

Life's a witch and then you fly

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 14 May 2003 to 15 May 2003 (#2003-141)
***************************************************************



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