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FORKNI-L Digest - 22 Feb 2002 to 23 Feb 2002 - Special issue (#2002-55)

Sat, 23 Feb 2002

There are 16 messages totalling 1125 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. Janette or Nat?  final segment I promise! (6)
  2. These Our Revels (2)
  3. YKYBW/RTMFKW...
  4. YKYBWTMFKW
  5. Clips for My Boyfriend is a Vampire (Was Janette or Nat) (2)
  6. LaCroix question (2)
  7. Janette or Nat?  my final thoughts :)
  8. the seasons reorder Nick's choices

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:13:59 -0500
From:    Patty Costantino <psmoot43@h.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat?  final segment I promise!

Hi to everyone again,

This is a continuation to a response to Sunny's question about Nick's
display of affection towards Nat after BMV eps.  I swear it's the last one!
:-)

In case you all thought I was taking the easy way out by discussing only 4
shows in season two, I decided to include a breakdown of the eleven episodes
shown after BMV in air time order.

In the tag scene of The Fire Inside, which immediately followed BMV, there
is more cuddling and affection demonstrated by Nick next to the fireplace in
his loft.
Queen of Harps:  nothing much there.
More Permanent Hell and The Code:  already mentioned my thoughts.
C&C:  I can only add the same thoughts as what has been said on the list.
The dream reflected Nick’s guilt of the things he has denied them.   In
Nat’s case a workable romantic relationship.  Maybe because of LaCroix’
interference at L’Azure?
At the end of Near Death episode:  Lots of N&N hand, knee and even thigh
holding, a long meaningful goo goo eye look at one another as the camera
fades.
Although one may think there’s not much to go on with the N&N relationship
except perhaps More Permanent Hell, IMHO, there’s not much evidence that a
steady relationship between the IB’s was forthcoming too.  In the last scene
of Blood Money, there’s a quiet moment in Raven with Janette, where a
discussion and recap of Nick’s blood money comes up.  She makes references
to easing his burden, camera fades as their lips appear to come together.
It’s not evident to the viewer whether the kiss became passionate.  In tag
scene of Partners of the Month, Nick comes to Raven to make amends with
Janette, says “eternal friends” and she says “maybe more!”  Passionate kiss.
  Again, IMHO, there’s no evidence that things went further.  Maybe Nick
truly meant “eternal friends” and not “eternal lovers?”  Just my thoughts.
Crazy Love:  Losing control and feeling the need to possess, Nick goes to
Janette for vampire sex.  Says that he has used her and when she asks him to
come spend the day with her, he turns her down.  Passionate kiss between
IB’s in tag scene.  If Nat hadn’t been so curt with him and had offered to
discuss his needs to possess, I wonder if he would have gone to Janette in
that last scene?   Again my own musings.
Baby Baby:  real angsy eps.  No real affection between N&N.
Close Call:  nothing.

In conclusion, with the above air time showing of the second season, I see
some episodes where Nick demonstrates affection towards Natalie and doesn’t
keep his emotions reined in completely.  As far as Janette’s and Nick’s
rekindling of a possible relationship, the viewer sees two passionate kisses
in Partners and Crazy Love, one potential passionate kiss in Blood Money and
many hopeful references made by Janette for a deeper relationship, but Nick,
through it all, remains silent and noncommittal or says no as he did in
Crazy Love to Janette’s suggestion of “staying the day with her.“ Again,
it’s strictly my take on the show.
Please don’t misconstrue my observations as being harsh.  I like Janette,
but I’ve always thought she represented Nick’s past love as Nat was his
present and future one.
Patty


------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:13:37 EST
From:    Evelyn Duncan <BrandyKitt@a.......>
Subject: These Our Revels

I went to the drugstore to get a few things, and guess what I found in
the 2 for $5 book bin?  These Our Revels!  So, naturally, I had to snag
a copy for myself.  It will make a nice book to read while I'm on the bus
going to and from work.

Evelyn Duncan
brandykitt@a.......
You're just jealous 'cause the voices are talking to me.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:33:00 -0800
From:    Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat?  final segment I promise!

Wow Patty! I’m floored. Three long posts to prove
Nick’s affection toward Nat and deny his affection
toward Janette. I’m impressed. Still, I can’t help to
wonder if IB’s had to write as much to prove the
opposite. Hmm, nope, I don’t think so :) A small
comparison between the number of passionate kisses
(even excluding the ones that are off camera and
*could* have been non-passionate), the fact that they
usually end up in each other’s arms whenever he goes
to visit her, the start of season one with the
flashback of them kissing, end of season two
(Janette’s last regular appearance) with them kissing
again, the 97 years of marriage (yes, in the past, but
like I said, we’re talking about vampires here and
“eternal friends” has a whole other meaning for them),
the observation that during all the neck-of-the–week
affairs of season one, Janette was the only other
woman to whom he showed a similar type of affection,
and, I hesitate to say this, Nick’s very last mental
image projected into Nat’s mind while he was draining
her in LK.

Like I said, canonically, I think it were Nick and
Janette who created the love story. Fandom has its own
perception of course. As for past, present and future
love, again I must repeat that for vampires, these too
have different implications. Past goes back 800 years,
present is just a blink of an eye. And Nat’s future,
even if she lives a hundred years, is a year and a
half for Nick even if they truly become lovers.

Cheers
-Sunny


=====
Countess -- Twilight Knightie,IB,DT,UF,Cotk

"Trudging through enternity, hauling my homemade horrors, do you think THAT was
my dream when I was young and evil?"

                           -Mommy Fortuna, The last Unicorn

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:47:33 -0800
From:    Kezia Hepden <keziahepden@h.......>
Subject: YKYBW/RTMFKW...

You know you've been watching/reading too much Forever Knight when...

1)  You hear on the radio that today  (Friday, 22nd February) is National
Slacker's Day, and your immediate reaction is: How come Vachon gets a day
all to himself?  What about Uncle Day?  Or National Angst/Brick/Klew (chose
your favourite) Day, etc?....

2)  It's London Fashion Week, and on hearing the news you *immediately*
think 'Hmm.... Guess that means Janette's in town again'....

3)  You worry about the coffee mugs donated to your office kitchen by some
recent contractors - they read in part 'Self-Levelling Floor Screeds' and
not only do you want to know what that is, but you find the thought of
multiple Screeds kinda scary. (Upon reflection, the concept of multiple
Screeds is enough to terrify the toughest Merc or Cousin, or to make Uncle
pause for thought... on the whereabouts of the nearest stake, perhaps?!
<VEG>)

Cousin Kezia

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:49:50 -0600
From:    Kristin <kris1228@s.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat?  final segment I promise!

I couldn't agree more with Sunny! I would definately have to say Janette is
the best for Nick. She accepts him as he is, a vampire. She just wants him
to enjoy and accept what he is and they show each other their love very
often.

"Cherry Blossoms" is one good example. Janette comes to save Nick, even in
the daylight. The thought of losing him is over-bearing for her by her
expressions (as Nick is so upset in "Human Factor" at the thought of losing
her in the fire, so he vamps with a sorrowful roar and brings her back
over). After he's safe again they both let out a huge sigh of relief and hug
really close together. Part of this is only seen in Canada. And of course
later major passion erupts and almost a love bite from Nick. :)

"Dance By the Light of the Moon" Nick becomes a vampire to spend eternity
with Janette, because he "loves" her so much and also desires her. Janette
also has to have him. He's like no other mortal she's ever seen. They marry
for a long time, but Nick loves Janette sooo much she couldn't handle it
after a while. He was smothering her, as she says in "Partners of the
Month," and she wasn't use to the depth of his feelings for her, so that is
why she leaves for a while. Of course she regrets it later, and they
continue on through out the centuries with a less closely tied relationship,
but still full of passion.

Natalie wants to change Nick. She's often bossy and not always
understanding, like saying to give up blood. Nick needs blood to 'live' and
she should have known that by now. She's not good for his well-being. I
think Nick cares about Nat greatly, but doesn't love her romantically. She's
helpful in his search for a cure, but eventually he'd have to give up on her
and maybe on the whole thing. By the end of the second season he was drawing
closer and closer to Janette and not so much to the cure, especially season
three. He often did enjoy his nature ("Games Vampires Play," "Night in
Question," "Sons of Belial" and "Crazy Love" particularly) and even drank
human blood several times, more than the other seasons.

They've been together 800 years, as lovers, friends, and more. Nick and
Janette are just meant to be.

~Long Live Nick and Janette~
Kristin
http://knightvision.4ever.cc
"When you only have eyes for the Knight..."

> Like I said, canonically, I think it were Nick and
> Janette who created the love story. Fandom has its own
> perception of course.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:43:54 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: YKYBWTMFKW

The office's annual chili cookoff is held, and someone enters chocolate
covered cherries in the shape of mice/rats into the dessert competition and
you see them and squeal with Ratpackery delight! (And my FK fan boss got a
big kick out of watching me eat them, too!)

Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:55:30 -0600
From:    "Nancy E. Kaminski" <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat?  final segment I promise!

> Kristin wrote:

> I couldn't agree more with Sunny! I would definately have to
> say Janette is the best for Nick. She accepts him as he is, a vampire. She
> just wants him to enjoy and accept what he is and they show each other their
> love very often.

I see this relationship differently. Yes, Janette wants Nick to be what he used
to be, a vampire seemingly content with his state. However, Nick doesn't want
that. And isn't love accepting each other as is? Janette continually shows a
sort of exasperated contempt of Nick's aspirations to maintain at least what is
left of his humanity.

And yes, they jump on each other at the least opportunity, but that's sex, not
love. Janette is clearly Nick's safety valve when things get too, um, "tense"
for him.

I agree they demonstrate affection for each other, but I think it's cooled over
the years to a relationship between vampire siblings; captives together of
Lacroix's dominance and control, solace and comfort to each other, they can turn
to each other in times of need.

The distinction I'm trying to make is that Nick and Nat appear to share a
largely unspoken and doomed romantic love, based on a solid friendship. This is
the kind of love that endures (at least in the mortal world), while passion
almost invariably dies. After it dies what is left? Perhaps vampire passion
lasts much longer than the human version, after all, Nick and Janette were
together for 97 years. But her passion cooled and Nick attempted to maintain it.
Thus she said she was "smothered" by his love, and left.

> "Cherry Blossoms" is one good example. Janette comes to save
> Nick, even in the daylight. The thought of losing him is over-bearing for her
> by her expressions (as Nick is so upset in "Human Factor" at the
> thought of losing her in the fire, so he vamps with a sorrowful roar and
> brings her back

I would certainly risk all to save my brother, but that's sibling love, not
romantic love.

> "Dance By the Light of the Moon" Nick becomes a vampire to
> spend eternity with Janette, because he "loves" her so much and also desires
> her.

I wouldn't say that their relationship even approached love at this point; for
all Nick knew she was a really hot prostitute with a great line, and he was a
lonely soldier with time on his hands. He was entranced by her beauty, yes, and
lured by her seductive manner. Love? I don't think so. IMO at that point Nick
was definitely thinking with something other than his brain, so much so that he
made a very rash decision. And let's face it, he didn't know what the deal was.
When he agreed to an eternity of nights with Janette he might have been thinking
he'd have a steady date for as long as he was in Paris, and heck, maybe she'd go
on the road with him as his mistress.

> Janette also has to have him. He's like no other mortal she's ever
> seen.

Well, he's a pretty handsome man with an intrigueingly angsty expression. I
don't blame her! I like my dinner to be attractive too, although in my case that
means a sprig of parsley on the mashed potatoes and a cleverly-folded napkin.
<g> Janette did say, "I want him, Lacroix," but does that mean a)I'm hungry;
b)some mortal sex would be really fun right now; or c)I'd like a good-looking
brother/lover for eternity? We don't really know if Lacroix's offer of
immortality was a spur of the moment thing, and whether or not Janette felt
momentarily cheated out of dinner.

> They marry for a long time, but Nick loves Janette sooo much she
> couldn't handle it after a while. He was smothering her, as she says in
> "Partners of the Month," and she wasn't use to the depth of his feelings for
> her, so that is why she leaves for a while.

Bear in mind that they didn't marry until several hundred years had passed, and
in the meantime Nick had attempted to marry Alyssa.

> Natalie wants to change Nick. She's often bossy and not always
> understanding, like saying to give up blood. Nick needs blood
> to 'live' and she should have known that by now. She's not good for his
> well-being.

Again, Nick *asked* for Nat's help, and has said on numerous occasions how much
he wanted to change. He was willing to undergo Nat's ideas of a cure, including
trying to abstain from blood. To return to the "addiction" analogy that the
series seemed to espouse, Janette was acting like a someone who says to an
alcoholic, "Go ahead, take a drink. it makes you feel good, it's what you want,
it's how you're designed, give into the urges." Nat, on the other hand,
continually points out how addictive the blood is, how much he wants to be free
of its power, and how often he had asked for her help in getting off it. So
who's better for Nick, at least in terms of what Nick himself wants?

It certainly can be argued that drinking blood is as natural to a vampire as
eating food is to a mortal, and Nat's cures were way off base (not that there's
a lot of research out there on curing vampires---she was groping in the dark for
non-existent straws); but what matters here is what *Nick* thinks about it. And
most of the time he seemed to think she was doing the right thing for him, even
though he couldn't always comply through what he probably considered his own
moral weaknesses.

> think Nick cares about Nat greatly, but doesn't love her
> romantically.

It's neat how differently people can see the same thing! I think he does love
her romantically, but this was a doomed, tragic love, as shown in Last Knight. I
think both knew they'd never be able to have the other, and could only love in
silence and denial.

> She's helpful in his search for a cure, but eventually he'd have to
> give up on her and maybe on the whole thing.

Unless of course, Nat succeeds. That's when we get the happily-ever-after
scenario. <g> But alas I think it'll never come to be, and that would give Nick
fodder for angsting for another five hundred years.

> They've been together 800 years, as lovers, friends, and
> more. Nick and Janette are just meant to be.

Except of course that Nick went into eternity the mortal way with Nat in Last
Knight. I'm not a denier of that ending---I think it's the perfect denoument of
this tragedy. The whole three-year arc was the story of the rise of hope, the
fall into despair, and finally the descent into the death that hed the hope of
eternal life.

Nancy Kaminski
lover of a good tragedy
nancykam@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:49:49 +0800
From:    Elliza Rahim <relliza@h.......>
Subject: Re: Clips for My Boyfriend is a Vampire (Was Janette or Nat)

Hi Sunny,

Thanks for the pointer. Er..he was frantically trying to catch a klew from
what I read.;-)
Ell

>You can find the transcript at:
>http://www.fkfanfic.com/fkscripts/mbiav.txt
>as for that part, it's when Nick confronts Nat in the
>precinct hallway. It's not exactly what he says. In
>the transcript he says: "What am I supposed to say?
>What am I supposed to say to you? I don't know what to
>say. Tell me what to say."
>and he sounds more frantic than desperate
>
>Cheers
>-Sunny
>
>
>
>=====
>Countess -- Twilight Knightie,IB,DT,UF,Cotk
>
>"Trudging through enternity, hauling my homemade horrors, do you think THAT
>was my dream when I was young and evil?"
>
>                            -Mommy Fortuna, The last Unicorn
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:57:24 -0500
From:    Cecilia Long <celong@m.......>
Subject: LaCroix question

-----Original Message-----
From: Forever Knight TV show [mailto:FORKNI-L@l.......]On Behalf Of
Nancy E. Kaminski
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 10:56 PM
To: FORKNI-L@l.......
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat? final segment I promise!


> Kristin wrote:

> I couldn't agree more with Sunny! I would definately have to
> say Janette is the best for Nick. She accepts him as he is, a vampire. She
> just wants him to enjoy and accept what he is and they show each other their
> love very often.

I see this relationship differently. Yes, Janette wants Nick to be what he used
to be, a vampire seemingly content with his state. However, Nick doesn't want
that. And isn't love accepting each other as is? Janette continually shows a
sort of exasperated contempt of Nick's aspirations to maintain at least what
is left of his humanity.

And yes, they jump on each other at the least opportunity, but that's sex, not
love. Janette is clearly Nick's safety valve when things get too, um, "tense"
for him.

I agree they demonstrate affection for each other, but I think it's cooled over
the years to a relationship between vampire siblings; captives together of
Lacroix's dominance and control, solace and comfort to each other, they can
turn to each other in times of need.

The distinction I'm trying to make is that Nick and Nat appear to share a
largely unspoken and doomed romantic love, based on a solid friendship. This
is the kind of love that endures (at least in the mortal world), while passion
almost invariably dies. After it dies what is left? Perhaps vampire passion
lasts much longer than the human version, after all, Nick and Janette were
together for 97 years. But her passion cooled and Nick attempted to maintain
it. Thus she said she was "smothered" by his love, and left.

> "Cherry Blossoms" is one good example. Janette comes to save
> Nick, even in the daylight. The thought of losing him is over-bearing for
> her by her expressions (as Nick is so upset in "Human Factor" at the
> thought of losing her in the fire, so he vamps with a sorrowful roar and
> brings her back

I would certainly risk all to save my brother, but that's sibling love, not
romantic love.

> "Dance By the Light of the Moon" Nick becomes a vampire to
> spend eternity with Janette, because he "loves" her so much and also desires
> her.

I wouldn't say that their relationship even approached love at this point; for
all Nick knew she was a really hot prostitute with a great line, and he was a
lonely soldier with time on his hands. He was entranced by her beauty, yes, and
lured by her seductive manner. Love? I don't think so. IMO at that point Nick
was definitely thinking with something other than his brain, so much so that he
made a very rash decision. And let's face it, he didn't know what the deal was.
When he agreed to an eternity of nights with Janette he might have been thinking
he'd have a steady date for as long as he was in Paris, and heck, maybe she'd go
on the road with him as his mistress.

> Janette also has to have him. He's like no other mortal she's ever
> seen.

Well, he's a pretty handsome man with an intrigueingly angsty expression. I
don't blame her! I like my dinner to be attractive too, although in my case that
means a sprig of parsley on the mashed potatoes and a cleverly-folded napkin.
<g> Janette did say, "I want him, Lacroix," but does that mean a)I'm hungry;
b)some mortal sex would be really fun right now; or c)I'd like a good-looking
brother/lover for eternity? We don't really know if Lacroix's offer of
immortality was a spur of the moment thing, and whether or not Janette felt
momentarily cheated out of dinner.

> They marry for a long time, but Nick loves Janette sooo much she
> couldn't handle it after a while. He was smothering her, as she says in
> "Partners of the Month," and she wasn't use to the depth of his feelings for
> her, so that is why she leaves for a while.

Bear in mind that they didn't marry until several hundred years had passed,
and in the meantime Nick had attempted to marry Alyssa.

> Natalie wants to change Nick. She's often bossy and not always
> understanding, like saying to give up blood. Nick needs blood
> to 'live' and she should have known that by now. She's not good for his
> well-being.

Again, Nick *asked* for Nat's help, and has said on numerous occasions how much
he wanted to change. He was willing to undergo Nat's ideas of a cure, including
trying to abstain from blood. To return to the "addiction" analogy that the
series seemed to espouse, Janette was acting like a someone who says to an
alcoholic, "Go ahead, take a drink. it makes you feel good, it's what you
want, it's how you're designed, give into the urges." Nat, on the other hand,
continually points out how addictive the blood is, how much he wants to be free
of its power, and how often he had asked for her help in getting off it. So
who's better for Nick, at least in terms of what Nick himself wants?
Do any of good FK people here happen to know the Latin word for General?

I am trying to figure out some interesintg Alias' that Lucien might use for
a fic Im writing, and thought that General in Latin might be interesting, or
maybe French?  Or doyou think he would just keep his regular name all the
time....?

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:08:44 +0800
From:    Elliza Rahim <relliza@h.......>
Subject: Re: Clips for My Boyfriend is a Vampire (Was Janette or Nat)

Oops! Did it again. That was not supposed to go to list, just to Sunny.
Sorry.

Waves to all and ducks to avoid any flying tomatoes. ;-)
Ell

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:48:04 EST
From:    Rexjdk@a.......
Subject: Re: These Our Revels

You will not be able to put it down!!!!

jen

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:20:12 -0600
From:    Kristin <kris1228@s.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat?  final segment I promise!

>Janette continually shows a
> sort of exasperated contempt of Nick's aspirations to maintain at least
> what is left of his humanity.

Actually, that's only in some of the 1st. She's still a little angry about
him supposedly killing LaCroix too. By early season 2, as quoted in "A Fate
Worse Than Death" she states she hopes Nick is right in starting over and of
course he's surprised by that. Janette only wants what is best for Nick and
she does not like to see him hurt himself in his mortal quest. She did start
to understand him though in that way.

>
> And yes, they jump on each other at the least opportunity, but that's sex,
> not love. Janette is clearly Nick's safety valve when things get too, um,
> "tense" for him.

I really do not understand why some people look at them that way. It is a
matter of opinion and I honestly think he often went to her to rekindle
their old love and spark the lights of their fire together. Perhaps some
people are just disappointed that their wasn't more love scenes with Nick
and Nat, so they look down on the ones that are there. Sadly for them they
are not Nick and Nat, but anything but that most of the time. Nat could even
be pictured as one of Nick's brief female liassons, like Alyssa or Serena.
Janette was far, far longer than that and that is not just lust to make such
a relationship last.

> over
> the years to a relationship between vampire siblings; captives together of
> Lacroix's dominance and control, solace and comfort to each other, they
> can turn to each other in times of need.
>

At times of course they will come to one another's needs, but what about
episodes were Nick simply came to Janette to see her? "Curiouser and
Curiouser," "Partners of the Month," and "Blood Money" are just a few to
name, where he simply wanted affection. Quote Janette & Nick (potm) "Eternal
friends..." "Maybe more..." Oh, if they could have had her around longer who
knows how much further it could go. "Maybe their eyes would meet and they
would fall in love all over again..." Again, love not lust, as quoted in the
series, and definately not just brother and sister.

> The distinction I'm trying to make is that Nick and Nat appear to share a
> largely unspoken and doomed romantic love, based on a solid friendship.

Only a few moments anything beyond friendship shows and as Liz stated, when
Nat was about to leave him for some reason or another. Even BMV showed Nick
suddenly showing her affection, after he saw that the guy who died never got
to show his love to the victim. He only showed it to her to make it feel
like she wasn't being used. Vampires and mortals don't mix. I did enjoy
seeing the scenes with them closer though, however brief. Though I never
thought of them as in love, just real close friends.

Nick and Janette were
> together for 97 years. But her passion cooled and Nick attempted to
> maintain it. Thus she said she was "smothered" by his love, and left.

As LaCroix states, it is natural for a vampire to move on. Janette just
wasn't used to that kind of love. We see in "Partners of the Month" though,
that she regrets leaving him then. She related with Schanke leaving Myra and
how much they missed the person of their love life.

> I would certainly risk all to save my brother, but that's sibling love, not
> romantic love.

Again, matter of opinion. I look at it as romantic love, especially with the
signs and guestures, the hug in CB, followed by the intense loft scene
(something siblings would not do for sure) and the portrait in HF.

> I wouldn't say that their relationship even approached love at this point; for
> all Nick knew she was a really hot prostitute with a great line, and he was a
> lonely soldier with time on his hands. He was entranced by her beauty, yes, and
> lured by her seductive manner.

I think of it as love at first sight. Maybe, not as deep yet, but definately
enchantment there. Afterall, Janette even wanted LC to bring Nick over for
her. He had to be quite special for that.

>I like my dinner to be attractive too, although in my case that
> means a sprig of parsley on the mashed potatoes and a cleverly-folded napkin.
> <g> Janette did say, "I want him, Lacroix,"

Obviously, she did want him with her forever. That's why she didn't bite him
in DBTLOTM, when they were making love. When she introduces him to LaCroix
and shortly after LC makes his speech to Nick about how he can give him
eternity, Nick has been chosen as a vampire. After he's been drained, she
says "Oh, I want him." She wants him forever, along her side, not for a
snack.

> Bear in mind that they didn't marry until several hundred years had
> passed, and in the meantime Nick had attempted to marry Alyssa.

I had originally thought Alyssa came after Janette.

> Again, Nick *asked* for Nat's help, and has said on numerous occasions how
> much he wanted to change.

No, she offered to help him. He didn't ask. He simply hypnotized her to
forget him. She wanted to study him and obviously get closer to him. Nick
agrees after Nat's offer. She's another doctor that might be able to help
him in his little quest. By season 3, and notibly after Janette's gone, he
doesn't ask so much to become human. In fact, in "Games Vampires Play" she
asks him if that is what he wants, and he does not answer, as if unsure.
This is before he even starts the game. He is getting bored with one of his
many lifes and Nat's just another mortal involved. LaCroix seems to sense
his changes after coming by the loft too.

>Janette was acting like a someone who says to an
> alcoholic, "Go ahead, take a drink. it makes you feel good, it's what you
> want, it's how you're designed, give into the urges."

Actually, she just wants him to have what he *needs.* He needs blood to
live. It is not healthy for him to starve himself and Janette knows that. As
does LaCroix. This doesn't relate to alcohol at all.

>Nat, on the other hand,
> continually points out how addictive the blood is, how much he wants to be
> free of its power, and how often he had asked for her help in getting off it.

Again, he doesn't ask often, it is her demanding it. Like "Dark Knight,"
"Capital Offense," etc... And doing that is hurting him. She should know he
needs blood to survive.

> So who's better for Nick, at least in terms of what Nick himself wants?
>
> It certainly can be argued that drinking blood is as natural to a vampire as
> eating food is to a mortal, and Nat's cures were way off base

Janette certainly makes Nick happier and knows what he needs to survive. Nat
only does things to harm him or disgust him with her protien shakes. She'd
end up being the death of him, so I must therefore say Janette.


>>this was a doomed, tragic love, as shown in Last Knight.

Depends on how you put together the episode. Remember the stake never falls
and guess who Nick was thinking about in the end... Janette... time to move
on... Nat relates to Alyssa's tragic death in this sense.

> Except of course that Nick went into eternity the mortal way with Nat in Last
> Knight. and finally the descent into the death that hed the hope of
> eternal life.

Again, this never happens. Nat is just drained. If you put together the
scenes here's what happens after the stake is raised...
LaCroix is at the loft, standing behind a crouching Nick. He tells him how a
vampire staying past their time is death, and reminds Nick what he taught
him so many years ago. "Leaving is the purest form of love," and Nick turns
to him... Note: All LaCroix's wavy loft speeches are mixed in the episode.
Most are repeated at the end, but this one is not, and appears to belong
after the rising of the stake. Also notice that LaCroix is behind Nick,
exactly how the end was... So, in conlusion I think they moved on, if that's
indeed supposed to be the end (the characters seemed a bit out of charcter
as well, especially Nat. She used to think suicide was never the answer,
like in "Last Act"... hmmm)... So after Nick and LC move on, as they appear
to, who knows maybe Nick will run into his enternal love... Janette.

Kristin
http://knightvision.4ever.cc
"When you only have eyes for the Knight..."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:40:28 -0800
From:    Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat?  my final thoughts :)

Ok, ok. This discussion is getting a little too
hot--not that I don't like it, I get bored when the
list is too quiet.:)
Here is my opinion after reading your thoughts:

Obviously: two chicks, one hell of a cute guy. Both
fell for him, and yes, both made the first move.
It's just the problem of who came first. Gee, how many
of us have had the experience of falling for a guy and
then, once you think you have him, he smiles at you
over dinner and says "There is this other chick ya
know, I had been seeing for eight years. She left me
though and it's over now, but..." in my case, alarm
bells go off right there and then. That 'other chick'
is permanently etched in the guy's mind and 90% of the
time, the guy still loves her because of those 8 years
of intimacy. Project that into 800 years and you get
my meaning. I don't deny that a very smart and
selfless woman can breach that armor, but it takes a
lot of patience and a lot of time, again magnifying it
times 100.

I still stand by my first presumption: Janette is the
eternal vampire lover, Nat was seen as the love of the
mortal lifetime. Only Nat, being the proud and
headstrong woman that she was, didn’t want to be a
passing liaison, so she took the ‘quest for mortality’
as an opportunity to turn the relationship around and
into her own (our) mortal standards. When that didn’t
work out, she gave in and asked him to bring her
across, just to be with him for real and not as
another Alyssa, or Amalia or what’s-her-name. Only,
Nick, the ultimate brickster, never got it, and
intersected her at every turn until she got fed up and
LK happened. If you look at it that way, it is in fact
a tragic love story, but not between a man and a
woman, but between a persistent but confused woman and
a clueless and even more confused vampire.

-Sunny


=====
Countess -- Twilight Knightie,IB,DT,UF,Cotk

"Trudging through enternity, hauling my homemade horrors, do you think THAT was
my dream when I was young and evil?"

                           -Mommy Fortuna, The last Unicorn

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:51:03 -0500
From:    Cecilia Long <celong@m.......>
Subject: Re: LaCroix question

Omigosh. I dont know what I did! Sorry about this. I see my name
and....stuff.. I dont know what after it, and not what I wrote.  I must be
galactically stupid today.

Please accept my apologies for this. LEts see if my original question went
through....
No, I guess not...

Well my question WAS... does anyone know the latin word for General, or
maybe the French.  I am trying to come up with Alais' that Lucien might use
outside of his regular name. ITs for a fic Im writing....


-----Original Message-----
From: Forever Knight TV show [mailto:FORKNI-L@l.......]On Behalf Of
Cecilia Long
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 5:57 AM

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:58:37 -0800
From:    "Amy R." <akr@l.......>
Subject: the seasons reorder Nick's choices

      I noticed something intriguingly new-to-me feeling in FK.  After all
this time, that doesn't happen very often anymore, so I thought I'd share,
in case it might be new to others as well.

      If I recall correctly, Nick's first documented attempt --
chronologically -- to return to physical humanity is "Let No Man Tear
Asunder" in the 1830s, some sixty years before he swears off all killing
("Love You To Death," 1890).

      But in series order -- as opposed to chronology -- the first
flashback we see to an attempt at physical humanity is "Cherry Blossoms,"
in 1916.  First season includes four attempts to regain Nick's physical
humanity: with Natalie in 1992-93 Toronto, at Altun Kinal with the cups in
1895, with acupuncturist Mai Chong in 1916 San Francisco, and the Abbarrat
in 1966 East Berlin.  First season, perhaps more concerned with Nick's
emotional and spiritual humanity, gives us every reason to believe that the
decision to become physically human again _followed_ the decision to give
up killing entirely.  First season implies that the desire for physical
humanity was a consequence of this epiphany -- that not-killing and
humanity go together, as killing and vampirism go together.

     Then second and third season came around and predated Nick's LYTD
decision with "The Fix" and LNMTA, re-ordering the entire dynamic.  Second
season pushed it back from 1895 to 1857, and third season pushed it back
from there to the 1830s.  Because the later seasons inserted these attempts
at regaining physical humanity before the events of LYTD, Nick was still
killing -- even if "only the guilty" -- after he decided to become human again.

      The contrast potentially redefines, from first season to the later
seasons, the FK vampire's dual instincts for the kill and for human
blood.  First-season Nick goes cold turkey on both in 1890, and abstains
after.  Later-season Nick tapers off throughout the 1800s (cf. "Blind
Faith," 1883), and sometimes backslides after.  First-season Nick decides
first not to kill (symbolically, to become psychologically and spiritually
human), and only secondly to become physically human.  Later-season Nick
desires first to become physically human, and only secondly not to kill.

      Just some thoughts.

Amy


Amy R., Knightie
akr@l.......
FK Site: http://users.LMI.net/~akr/fk/

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:14:13 -0600
From:    Eve Dutton <umdutto3@c.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat?  final segment I promise!

Okay, I can't resist, I have to jump into the fray here. Feel free not to
take anything I say seriously--that wasn't the spirit in which it was
intended. ;)

>Janette only wants what is best for Nick and
>she does not like to see him hurt himself in his mortal quest. She did start
>to understand him though in that way.

But she also makes it clear that she doesn't agree with his behaviour, or
aspire to humanity herself. "Don't ever assume that I'm like you, Nicolas,"
she tells him in "The Fix". "I'm not ashamed of who I am." She wants him
around, but she wants him around on her terms: if he steps into the light,
she will not follow. Natalie, on the other hand, even though she is helping
him to change--because *he* wants it--is willing to accept him as he is now,
and even, possibly, to follow him into the darkness. In "Father's Day",
Janette tells Lacroix where Nick has escaped to. Fair enough, that was in
the past--but she stands by her decision in the modern-day scenes as well.
"You were confused, and you needed us," she explains. "You know I was trying
to help you." In "Bad Blood", she helps Lacroix trap Nick at the Raven,
because it's what she believes is the right thing to do. Yes, she only wants
what's best for Nick--what *she* thinks is best. Not necessarily what Nick
wants, or even what he needs.

>Perhaps some
>people are just disappointed that their wasn't more love scenes with Nick
>and Nat, so they look down on the ones that are there.

I don't know about others, but I don't feel that way at all. I like seeing
the interplay between all the characters, including Nick and Janette. They
had some really beautifully scripted and directed scenes together, and I'm
not saying there isn't an affection between them. I just don't think that
the recussitation of any kind of long-term relationship between them would
have worked, as the show presented the characters.

>Nat could even
>be pictured as one of Nick's brief female liassons, like Alyssa or Serena.

Undoubtedly. With both Alyssa and Serena, he believed he had found someone
he could love forever, someone he could spend eternity with--the same thing
he thought was true of Janette at one time. But in each case, it didn't work
out for one reason or another, and he moved on. Perhaps Natalie is the
genuine article, the one person he has been looking for. Perhaps not--we'll
never know for certain, really, because of how the show ended. But some of
us like to think so. :)

>Janette was far, far longer than that and that is not just lust to make
>such a relationship last.

Again, I don't deny that they cared about each other, but that doesn't
necessarily mean it was meant to be forever (c.f. Nancy's comments on
"passion" vs. love and the longevity of vampire passion).

>At times of course they will come to one another's needs, but what about
>episodes were Nick simply came to Janette to see her? "Curiouser and
>Curiouser," "Partners of the Month," and "Blood Money" are just a few

The scenes both in "Curiouser and Curiouser" and "Blood Money" served a
point to the narrative. He visits her in "Curiouser and Curiouser" because
it's a setup to the robbery and subsequent murder, which propels Nick into
his guilt-driven fantasy. To have him there working on a case would have
cluttered the scene unecessarily. In "Blood Money", the audience gets to
find out that Nick got the money back and why he didn't just let it go. Who
else is he going to discuss this with? Schanke? Lacroix? It's likely he
hasn't even told Natalie all the details about the escapade with the Dauphin
and the ransom money. It could just as easily have been Nick talking to
Feliks Twist, if it comes to that, although I doubt very much Feliks looks
as good in a dress. ;) But the point is, it's a scene that forwards the
plot, and entertainingly at that, giving us playful banter rather than, say,
allowing us to read over Nick's shoulder at a computer screen.

You could say that Nick's scenes with Natalie serve a similar purpose, which
of course they do. (Wouldn't be much of a show if none of the dialogue
advanced the plot. ;)) But a lot of their discussions, which could quite
easily take place at work, happen instead in a social setting: watching
videos, having dinner together, enjoying an evening out with friends (in
"Last Act" at the play, or at the end of "Feeding the Beast" when they're
about to go out to wherever it is they're going). These scenes are very
clearly a choice to portray Nick and Natalie as having a close friendship
outside of their work, whereas the scenes with Janette are in part just a
contrivance.

[re BMV]
>He only showed it to her to make it feel
>like she wasn't being used. Vampires and mortals don't mix.

I find it hard to believe that was Nick's only motivation. I do agree that
it was kind of sudden, but Nick is, if I may be party to a small
understatement, kind of an impulsive guy. 800 years of knocking around the
world may have tempered this characteristic somewhat (anything's possible!)
but it certainly hasn't eliminated it. And it was a very mortal kind of
impulsiveness that seemed to prompt him: he'd been getting "go" signals from
Nat, it was that time of year, he was feeling comfortable enough in their
relationship, and so he just decided to go for it. (Perhaps not the best
reason to invite the wrath of Lacroix, granted....)

>We see in "Partners of the Month" though,
>that she regrets leaving him then. She related with Schanke leaving Myra and
>how much they missed the person of their love life.

So she tries to rekindle their relationship--which probably works up to a
point. But the shoe's on the other foot now: Nick is happy to have her in
his life as someone he can have a little fun with, who can "ease his burden"
when he needs that.

>the hug in CB, followed by the intense loft scene
>(something siblings would not do for sure)

Didn't Nat come in and interrupt that scene? Maybe that's symbolic. ;)

>I think of it as love at first sight. Maybe, not as deep yet, but
> definately enchantment there.

Like you say, a matter of opinion. :)

>No, she offered to help him. He didn't ask. He simply hypnotized her to
>forget him.

>She wanted to study him and obviously get closer to him. Nick
>agrees after Nat's offer.

So how is that different from Janette's offer? Nat offers him something he
wants, and he goes along with it. Maybe her motivation is love at first
sight too. ;) (For the record, I don't believe in love at first sight,
although I do believe in fortuitous infatuation. ;)) He didn't have to
accept either offer if he didn't want to. But he did. This time, however,
the decision was more informed--Natalie didn't deceive him. She makes it
very clear this isn't going to be easy for him, but she's willing to put in
time and effort to help him, as long as he is willing to be helped.

>Actually, she just wants him to have what he *needs.* He needs blood to
>live. It is not healthy for him to starve himself and Janette knows that. As
>does LaCroix. This doesn't relate to alcohol at all.

How do you interpret "Feeding the Beast", and the blood "benders" Nick seems
to go on when he's having trouble coping with something? Maybe he should
have been looking at Overeaters Anonymous instead of a 12-step? ;) And, for
the record, Natalie is not trying to starve him--she's trying to find a
substitute for blood that doesn't have to come from a living creature, so
that Nick can live without feeling guilty about the fact that he does have
to drink blood to survive, as well as to test her theory that the blood is
stopping him from coming back across.

>Again, he doesn't ask often, it is her demanding it. Like "Dark Knight,"
>"Capital Offense," etc... And doing that is hurting him. She should know he
>needs blood to survive.

How should she know? We've spent thousands of years figuring out the
workings of the human body, and we're still not even close to being done. If
this had been an earlier century, the doctor might have subscribed to
humoral theories (and would also likely have been a man, which would render
this discussion either moot or very interesting indeed... ;)). Natalie is
one doctor who has one vampire to study, and that in her off hours, and she
doesn't even have a Gray's Vampire Anatomy to start off with. If she was
able to figure that out without testing, she'd be more than merely
brilliant; she'd be positively psychic. She's trying to test a theory--a
test which can't possibly be successful if Nick doesn't play along. As she
keeps telling him, if it doesn't work, he has eternity to try other things.

>Janette certainly makes Nick happier and knows what he needs to survive. Nat
>only does things to harm him or disgust him with her protien shakes.

Did Nick seem happy in "Feeding the Beast", when he said he was "revamping"
himself? That's not what he seems to want anymore. But it's easy, and it's
comfortable. The same goes for his relationship with Janette. It's familiar
ground. He knows that she will be there if he needs to unwind. But if he
doesn't want to go back and she doesn't want to become mortal, then it's a
relationship that's too flawed to work in any other way than the way it did
on the series.

So that's my 2 cents Canadian. I'm not trying to bash the Nick/Janette
dynamic, I think it's great, and have made a few music vids celebrating it.
:) And I can't help but be grateful to Janette... without her, Nick wouldn't
have met Natalie. ;)

And I liked your version too, Sunny. ;)

Eve
umdutto3@c.......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The opinions contained herein are mine, not those of the University of
Manitoba. It is the opinion of the University of Manitoba that I should be
writing my thesis.

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 22 Feb 2002 to 23 Feb 2002 - Special issue (#2002-55)
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