FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 6 Jan 2002 to 7 Jan 2002 (#2002-7)

Mon, 7 Jan 2002

There are 9 messages totalling 454 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Vampire Reproduction (7)
  2. Admin: RULES
  3. vampire reproduction

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Date:    Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:57:25 -0800
From:    Bonnie <callalily@l.......>
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

At 05:00 PM 1/6/02 -0500, Molly/Stormborn wrote:
>Yup.  Our reproductive systems take up a vast amount of resources, and in
>the female case, a vast amount of blood.

Vast is, perhaps, an overstatement here.  When you give blood, you give
about 250ml, one cup, and you don't even miss it -- the plasma is replaced
within a few days, the blood cells within a few weeks. The amount of blood
needed for menses monthly is less than this -- plus a woman has those
twenty-odd days to naturally replenish her system, since the blood is
accumulated at a consistently low rate during the weeks in between.


>I think if a female vampire were still fertile, she would run the risk of
>starving to death, or become nearly mad with bloodlust during her menses.

Like human females, I doubt a vampire female would notice the small amount
of blood being diverted.  The real question would be, would the blood be
reabsorbed into her system during menses or would it be expelled as with
humans who have no way of reabsorbing the fluid?  We have seen Nick's body,
after all, reabsorbing lost blood -- when he was on Nat's exam table in the
flashback for (I think it was) "Only The Lonely."

I think the real problem with female vampires, which Amy mentioned, would be
the age of the eggs.  She's right in that eggs are produced once and are not
replenished during a woman's lifetime -- and they do get old.  That's why
the longer a woman waits to have a child, the more likely the child is to
have a genetic disorder like Down's Syndrome.  It's pretty uncommon in kids
born to young mothers, but the odds are pretty high when you hit your late
forties, early fifties.  Age of the father doesn't seem to be a factor in
this, since sperm is being produced on a pretty much daily basis starting in
puberty.  That's not to say that sperm can't be defective, because it can --
but it's more of a matter of how it's produced, not of how long it's been
sitting around.  If it sits around or gets heated (hot-tubs, etc.) after
production, then it does start to breakdown, losing its ability to even bind
with an egg cell.

So, with male vampires, you'd have to wonder if their sperm production would
simply be shut down -- or if the sperm they created would be altered.  In
the show, Nat found a genetic difference in Nick's blood, didn't she??  (Or
am I recalling a fanfic?)  If so, it would be logical that those same
genetic difference would be visible in the DNA contained within the
vampire's sperm cells.  This could cause the sperm to NOT be compatible with
a human egg cell -- the most likely scenario, since it takes very little
difference to make them non-compatible.  Two flowers, for example, same
species, same variety, but which grow on different sides of the same hill,
can be completely non-compatible and will not produce seeds when
cross-pollinated.  On the other hand, a donkey and a horse can produce a
mule, but the mule will be sterile.  Then again, a Great Dane can breed with
a Toy Poodle and produce perfectly healthy puppies.  Genetics is pretty
complex that way.  It just depends what things differ between the two
genetic codes -- some things will allow for mating (and thus the creation of
a hybrid), others will not.

The other thing Amy mentioned was the need for reproduction.  In nature,
there are organisms which can reproduce by both sexual and asexual means.
Asexual reproduction is a division of cells resulting in an exact copy of
the original DNA.  Sexual reproduction is a combination of two different
sets of DNA.  Asexual reproduction guarantees consistency of the species.
Sexual reproduction guarantees diversity.  Both are important things and
have their place in nature.  Sexual reproduction (barring new advances in
science) has been enough to meet the needs of humans throughout the history
of the species.  It's possible vampires had the means to reproduce in
several different ways -- which may account for the myth in "Baby, Baby"
that it is possible -- but they've lost the ability over the millennia, or
its possible that, one day, a vampire will come across who still retains the
ability to mate sexually (resulting in a mutation of the species).

My question, I suppose, is how do we scientifically classify vampires?  They
are too different from us to simply be a different race -- which is a more
social/cultural classification than an actual genetic one anyway.   So, are
they another species within the *Homo* genus -- *Homo habilis*, *Homo
erectus*, *Homo sapiens*, *Homo vampirus* -- or are they another varietal of
the *Homo sapiens* species -- *Homo sapiens vampirus* (we are *Homo sapiens
sapiens*)?   Though, maybe, instead of *Homo sapiens vampirus* -- 'vampire'
in Turkish is 'uber', which when translated into Latin, as these scientific
names always are, is 'super' -- they would be *Homo sapiens super*.  I think
LaCroix would be happy with that classification. ;-)


Bonnie
Cousinly-Receptionist-In-Training
<callalily@l.......>

****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:55:17 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

In a message dated 1/6/02 6:41:13 PM Central Standard Time, callalily@l.......
writes:

<< Though, maybe, instead of *Homo sapiens vampirus* -- 'vampire'
 in Turkish is 'uber', which when translated into Latin, as these scientific
 names always are, is 'super' -- they would be *Homo sapiens super*.  I think
 LaCroix would be happy with that classification. ;-) >>

And there's at least one subspecies of vampire in the FK universe, and that
is carouches. We can assume there's some major behavioral differences,
although we've only seen two carouches. One was in Blind Faith and seemed a
lot more feral than Screed, and then there's Screed. Screed did not act like
any other vampire in the series. Fan fic sometimes says he was rather high
functioning for a carouche, though going by canon it'd be hard to say. Either
the feral vampire was closer to the norm, or Screed was, or perhaps somewhere
in between. Since Nick called carouches "a lower form of vampire," either
he's a bigot or carouches really are a bit "lower" on the totem pole of
vampires.

There is a difference in the creation ie: birth of a carouche vampire which
takes place in first feeding on human blood vs. "lower" animal blood. Now, it
just occured to me this could be taken as a sort of genetic problem if
compared to human reproduction instead of an actual subspecies or "breed" of
vampire.

So, Bons, what I'm getting at is would you list full vampires and carouches
as the same scientific classification, or would they be classified slightly
different. They both spring from humans ultimately, but there apparently are
differences.

Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:44:43 +1000
From:    Taliesyn <taliesyn@c.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: RULES

    McLisa you must have had a Great New Year Eve!


> Vampire New Year:
> LC (singing after mistaking Janette's private Raven reserve for his favorite
> blood type}:
> " Should auld aquaintance be forgot,
> And never brought to mind?"
> Nick (after several cows to which Janette has secretly added vodka for
> Bloody Elsies):
> "Yes!!!!"



Alexander J Braun - Taliesyn@c....... - ICQ # 12610993
"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the
terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?
So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of
the universe". Marcus, B5

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:20:16 -0800
From:    chris thatcher <mb_the_spy@y.......>
Subject: Re: vampire reproduction

'sit jus' me, or is this discussion running away with
itself? ;)  I rather thought of the issue
philosophically: mortals pass on their legacy through
their children, but if you're immortal....  you can't
have it both ways.  of course i don't see why there
couldn't be an exception.  this is fantasy, after all,
and you can do whatever you want (as long as it makes
a modicum of sense, whatever that is). :)  well,
that's my two not-worth-much-but-shiny cents for now.
Ja ne!

Chris ;?

=====
...above all shadows rides the Sun
   and Stars for ever dwell;
I will not say the Day is done,
   nor bid the Stars farewell.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Jan 2002 00:24:21 -0500
From:    Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

At 09:55 PM 1/6/2002 -0500, Libratsie wrote:

>And there's at least one subspecies of vampire in the FK universe, and that
>is carouches. We can assume there's some major behavioral differences,
>although we've only seen two carouches.

Two human-originated carouches, possibly three (Jody).

>There is a difference in the creation ie: birth of a carouche vampire which
>takes place in first feeding on human blood vs. "lower" animal blood.

Though I got the impression that an animal turned vampiric was also
considered to be a carouche (Raleigh, Perry) -- and the canonical jury is
out on whether a human "brought across" by a vampiric animal/carouche is a
vampire, a carouche, or something completely different.

>So, Bons, what I'm getting at is would you list full vampires and carouches
>as the same scientific classification, or would they be classified slightly
>different. They both spring from humans ultimately, but there apparently are
>differences.

 From a genetic standpoint, the vampiric creature would have genes from
both biological parents, genetic material from his/her/its sire, and -- if
we are to believe that carouche are lower functioning or
animal-functioning, regardless of physical appearance -- its first prey.
While we are not talking about a triploid or tetraploid being per se, we
are talking of a being who may have genetic material from three different
species of biological organisms -- potentially even three different classes
of mammal... I suspect it would be quite difficult to classify such a
person using standard Linnean taxonomy...


Brenda F. Bell   webwarren@e.......   /nick TMana     IM: n2kye
Arctophile, computer addict, TREKker, stealth photographer...
         UA, PoCBS, FKPagan; Neon-Green GlowWorm
HugMistress of the Ger Bear Project http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/
Gerthering 3 Photos:  http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/gertherng/
Visit the Fiendish Glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~webwarren/glow/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Jan 2002 04:25:00 -0500
From:    Cecilia Long <celong@m.......>
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

-----Original Message-----
From: Forever Knight TV show [mailto:FORKNI-L@l.......]On Behalf Of
Bonnie
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:57 PM
To: FORKNI-L@l.......
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

>The amount of blood
>needed for menses monthly is less than this -- plus a woman has those
>twenty-odd days to naturally replenish her system, since the blood is
>accumulated at a consistently low rate during the weeks in between.


Perhaps thats you, but I know that myself and many women I know lose FAR
MORE then less then a cup of blood.
I would lose closer to three of four, and other women I know lose a lot mor
ethen that piddley amount, but I havent asked them exactly how much... for
obviosu reasons...


>I think the real problem with female vampires, which Amy mentioned, would be
>the age of the eggs.  She's right in that eggs are produced once and are not
>replenished during a woman's lifetime -- and they do get old.  That's why


But people usually get old too and vampires dont, so i dont see anything
unusual about a vampire who when turned at a younger age, keeping the eggs
she carries younger along with the rest of her....


> Then again, a Great Dane can breed with
>a Toy Poodle and produce perfectly healthy puppies.  Genetics is pretty

And while Ill skip the plant hill reference because I odnt have the science
to back that up, but I beleive that is wrong, I CAN speak on this one, since
Ive been invovled with breeding dogs and had to learn a lot about it.'

While the POTENTIAL is there to have the GD mate with the TP... healthy
puppies? No way.  First off if mating diidnt kill the TP (if female) alone,
the size inherent difference in the puppies probably would....

In fact a lot of the "cute" mating people have done to dogs have caused
MAJOR problems with the resultant outcomes.. Gentically the dogs are usually
"bad", with severe temperment and genetical disorders, because people
nowadays dont have the breeding guts of old to cull bad puppies and breed
them sensably.  Now they let all the puppies live and so forth. It sounds
heartless, but you cant let genetic bad mixes continue on in that case...
Now to bring it back to FK....if I remember canon it was a virus that caused
the vampirism, whihc could or could not effect the sperm....viruses dont
have to change DNA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:00:39 -0700
From:    Molly Schneider <thestormborn@m.......>
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

Bonnie CRIT wrote:

>>Vast is, perhaps, an overstatement here.  <snip> Like human females, I
>>doubt a vampire female would notice the small amount of blood being
>>diverted.<<

It helps to have scientific input. :)  I only know, from my own experience,
that the amount of blood I lose during menses makes me very faint and
fatigued for several days.

>>The real question would be, would the blood be reabsorbed into her system
>>during menses or would it be expelled as with humans who have no way of
>>reabsorbing the fluid?  We have seen Nick's body, after all, reabsorbing
>>lost blood <snip><<

<admiringly> I never even thought of that!  See--four years on this list and
I'm *still* learning new things.

>>I think the real problem with female vampires, which Amy mentioned, would
>>be the age of the eggs.  She's right in that eggs are produced once and
>>are not replenished during a woman's lifetime -- and they do get old.<<

My theory, derived from other sources and unfortunately not from FK canon,
is that vampiric flesh and viscera undergo a very gradual process similar to
petrification.  The question of the age of the eggs leads to another
question: *if* a female FK vampire were able to conceive, would she be able
to carry the foetus to term, considering that the only nutrients her body
would be able to provide would have to come from blood taken from human
victims and maybe/maybe not mutated by her vampiric constitution?  And if
the foetus could survive, would it have a chance to get the blood before it
was reabsorbed by vampiric tissue?

>>In the show, Nat found a genetic difference in Nick's blood, didn't
>>she??<<

There is a difference in his blood than in human blood (ref. 'The Fix' and
her continual sampling of his blood throughout the series).

>>If so, it would be logical that those same genetic difference would be
>>visible in the DNA contained within the vampire's sperm cells.  This could
>>cause the sperm to NOT be compatible with a human egg cell<<

Could the sperm be 'dead' even inside the vampiric body?

>>My question, I suppose, is how do we scientifically classify vampires?
>><snip> So, are they another species within the *Homo* genus --<snip> or
>>are they another varietal of the *Homo sapiens* species -- *Homo sapiens
>>vampirus*<<

It was once thought that Cro-Magnon man evolved from Neanderthal man as the
next logical step in a linear progression.  That has long since been
disproved.  If several species of Homo can exist at the same time, and
several varieties of Homo sapiens, than it may be possible indeed that Homo
sapiens vampirus has co-existed for millenia.

I'm veering dangerously into violation of the list rules here, though, in
discussing vampires in general rather than FK vampires.  Begging a momentary
indulgence from McLisa and Don, my theory is that vampirism is a sort of
retrovirus that is passed through the blood and that, once it infects a new
host, it mutates the human host into a vampire.

OK, I'll shut up now. <g>

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, DT, FKPagan, Seducer, KEB
Abnormally fond of dead guys
thestormborn@m....... or stormborne@e.......
http://stormborn.tripod.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:43:40 -0700
From:    Laudon1965 <Laudon1965@c.......>
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

Most of what is lost is not blood, but tissue suffused with
blood, so there appears to be more blood loss than there
actually is.  I believe it's canon that FKcan regenerate tissue, and they
can always ingest more blood, so I don't
see that menses would be a problem for female vampires.
FK vampires seem to me to be streamlined by evolution
for survival, to be efficient killers.  Since they are able to
procreate via blood exchange, female vampires retaining
their mortal reproduction systems would be evolutionarily
(is this a word?<g>) unnecessary, an inefficient use of
resources, and I think would have been eliminated.

Laurie of the Isles
Laudon1965@c.......
"If you go on the Ricki Lake show and they put you in the
sound proof booth, don't come out that booth.  It ain't
gonna be a good time for you."  Sinbad

From: "Cecilia Long" <celong@m.......>

> Perhaps thats you, but I know that myself and many women I know lose FAR
> MORE then less then a cup of blood.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Jan 2002 19:17:16 +0100
From:    Lorin <vachesang@1.......>
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

"Laudon1965" <Laudon1965@c.......> wrote:
> procreate via blood exchange, female vampires retaining
> their mortal reproduction systems would be evolutionarily
> (is this a word?<g>) unnecessary, an inefficient use of
> resources, and I think would have been eliminated.

Brings up another interesting item - in FK lore, the vampires remain
forever at the age at which they were brought across, as if all
biological processes involved with ageing are 'frozen' at that point.
We know that their internal organs don't shrivel up and basically
disappear (as they do in Vampire: The Masquerade vampires) because in
Night in Question, Natalie gives Nick a transfusion directly into his
stomach.

So we can probably assume that all the organs are there, more or less
intact, but would they be functioning?  Nick's heart beat only once
every few seconds, IIRC, and I can't remember if it was canon or fanon
that they don't actually *need* to breathe.

And if the ovaries are there in a female, are they producing hormones?
Imagine the horror of being brought across in the middle of a *really*
bad PMS day... and being stuck there, forever...

Hmmm.  Perhaps that was the problem with Divia - she was brought across
just exactly at the 'wrong' stage of development for a girl!

Lor

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End of FORKNI-L Digest - 6 Jan 2002 to 7 Jan 2002 (#2002-7)
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