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FORKNI-L Digest - 23 Apr 2001 to 24 Apr 2001 (#2001-134)

Tue, 24 Apr 2001

There are 22 messages totalling 718 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Divia's prospects (3)
  2. Thoughts on the day (3)
  3. Various (3)
  4. Divia (2)
  5. Characters' Favorite Shakespeare lines (2)
  6. Vivendi/Universal
  7. BEN BASS ALERT and REMINDERS
  8. Birthday? (4)
  9. Roman middle class;scripts
 10. VS4 story? (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:47:44 -0700
From:    Klytaimnestra <lbowman@c.......>
Subject: Divia's prospects

It doesn't seem to me that it matters if it's in the (written) script.  What
matters, surely, is what we saw and heard?  The notes in the script could
have said "occurs in a pressure dome on Venus", but if nothing in the actual
production tipped the audience off, we would be free to ignore that in our
interpretation.  However, Divia's mom's red toga, marking her profession,
can't be argued around.  (Though I doubt in fact that she would have
bothered to wear it indoors.)

re: the size of the Roman middle class, depends what you mean by "middle
class" I suppose.  I was identifying it more or less as "anyone who can
afford to own more than one slave", but who isn't a member of the
aristocracy.  I don't know, however, how the "History of Private Life" Mary
Combs cites defines it, and no doubt they have a better definition than
that.

 I was also going on the archeological evidence from Pompeii, which is
obviously pertinent to precisely the time and place of Divia's life.  There
were a lot of flourishing small businesses in Pompeii; I would have
identified their owners as "middle class".  Perhaps in error.

The brothel incidentally looked as if it was doing extremely well.  The
brothels excavated in Pompeii have tended to be small, dingy little joints.
Divia's mom was obviously running a very up-market establishment!

re: social class not being defined by economic class in Rome - hard to say.
To aristocrats, family and bloodlines meant a lot.  To everyone else, who
knows?  The aristocrats wrote most of the books, so theirs are the biasses
we have had passed down to us.  But social class was defined by money more,
I think, than it was in 19th century Britain, though less than it is in 20th
century America.  Once your family had had money for more than 2
generations, of course, your class status increased.  Divia's grandchildren
would be able to marry basically where they chose.

re: not wanting a madam as a mother-in-law, the Romans weren't as prudish
about this as we are, though arguably there would have been some stigma (she
couldn't have married into the nobility, as I said).  But she could still
marry 'respectably', to someone who wanted a decent dowry more than decent
connections.  Merchants needing capital come to mind as reasonable mates for
Divia.

re: how dim her prospects were, given how little opportunity for
self-definition Roman women actually had, no question! Any woman's
prospects, even the most aristocratic, were 'dim' when judged by today's
standards.

L
--
Klytaimnestra             lbowman@c.......
Fanfiction at http://members.home.net/lbowman

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:56:12 EDT
From:    Laudon1965@a.......
Subject: Thoughts on the day

In honor of Shakespeare's birthday, (or as near to it as anybody
can guess) what do you think would be each character's favorite
quote from the Bard?

I'll start off with one for LaCroix:

"Self love, my liege is not so vile a sin as self neglecting."
the Dauphin, Henry V, act 2 scene 4

Laurie of the Isles

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:08:14 -0700
From:    Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: Various

Margie (Who is *supposed* to be a fellow Knightie and CotK!)
> Gee, the way Kyer's been going lately, she might just start wearing a toga
> voluntarily soon.  <eg>

Oh yes.
Kyer will wear a toga.
If you can find her a pschodelic neon with working winky-blinky lights.  And
a Phillis Diller fright wig.  Then (with hideously overdone makeup) she can
declare that "I am in LOVE WITH LUCIEN!" and start stalking him wherever he
goes.  (I think I can get the Inka to help me out on that part.)  Complete
with love songs sung in a key that could kill a cat.

Should take less than a week to scare the bejeebees out of the Old Fearless
Roman enough for him to pack up his bags without forwarding address and cut
Nicholas a break for a couple a' decades, do you think?

:)=
Kyer, kyer@p.......
Close relat has a Chrysler 300M website (he'd marry that car if he could!)
No sale pitches.  Anyone interested in the addy, e-mail me private.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:11:23 -0700
From:    Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on the day

> In honor of Shakespeare's birthday, (or as near to it as anybody
> can guess) what do you think would be each character's favorite
> quote from the Bard?
> I'll start off with one for LaCroix:

Not familiar with Shakespeare, so I'll do one for LC as well.  ;)

"Alas poor Yorik, <Burb!>, I knew him well..."

:)=
Kyer, kyer@p.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:26:41 +0100
From:    Linda Hepden <Kezia.Hepden@b.......>
Subject: Re: Divia

It occurred to me that there are couple of theories nobody has raised as
yet, as to why Divia offered to bring her father across but not her mother.

1)  She did ask her mother, but she said No.

2)  She offered to bring Lucius across as the ultimate revenge - the chance
to reverse the parent-child role (which had even more weight in patriarchal,
paternalistic Rome than in our modern society).

3)  She thought there was too much goodness, too much 'light' in her mother
for her to fit in with Divia's plans for world domination.

Of course, arguments 1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive.... <G>

Kezia

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:47:25 -0700
From:    StormBorn <smolly4@q.......>
Subject: Re: Divia's prospects

Klytaimnestra wrote:
>>However, Divia's mom's red toga, marking her profession, can't be argued
around.  (Though I doubt in fact that she would have bothered to wear it
indoors.)<<

It's a formal occasion, so they all should be wearing their togas--don't
know why Lucius isn't.

>>re: the size of the Roman middle class, depends what you mean by "middle
class" I suppose.  <snip> There were a lot of flourishing small businesses
in Pompeii; I would have identified their owners as "middle class".  Perhaps
in error.<<

But remember that the Roman world operated on the client-patron system.
Those small businesses were owned primarily by patricians, who let them out
to their operators, who were plebians and freedmen.  The patron (a
patrician) would fund the business for his client (plebian/freedman) who in
turn would turn over a portion of the profits.  In fact, Lucius might be
Seline's patron; that is, he might actually own the brothel and Seline, who
could be either his slave or former slave (freedwoman), runs it.

Yes, it is a lot like the Mafia. <g>

>>To aristocrats, family and bloodlines meant a lot.  To everyone else, who
knows?  <snip> But social class was defined by money more, I think, than it
was in 19th century Britain, though less than it is in 20th century
America.<<

Since voting and census required that everybody register under their tribe,
then I gather bloodlines meant a lot to everyone.  Besides, the strong Roman
regard for family was not limited to the patrician class.

>>re: not wanting a madam as a mother-in-law, the Romans weren't as prudish
about this as we are,<<

They may not have been prudish about using prostitutes, but they were just
as hypocritical as we in not wanting to be associated with them in the
public eye.  It would be all very well for Lucius to own a brothel and to
patronize one--but to acknowledge a child born of such a union?  Hmmn..."not
done" as the Victorians would have put it.

>>But she could still marry 'respectably', to someone who wanted a decent
dowry more than decent connections.  Merchants needing capital come to mind
as reasonable mates for Divia.<<

Lucius probably could have married her off to one of his clients, but these
would probably have been, as I said, plebians or freedmen.

>>re: how dim her prospects were, given how little opportunity for
self-definition Roman women actually had, no question! Any woman's
prospects, even the most aristocratic, were 'dim' when judged by today's
standards.<<

Roman women could have (discrete) affairs, practice contraception, and at
periods initiate divorces.  They could remarry respectably after divorce,
also.  They were not as cloistered as Greek and Middle Eastern women.  Also,
women throughout the ages have known how to get and hold power through
manipulation, something we forget in this so-called 'liberated' age.  Still,
on the other hand, female children were often not given names of their own,
known, for example, as "Julia Majora", "Julia Minora," "Julia Tercia" (the
older, younger and third daughters of the Julia gens).

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, Dark Trinity, Seducer, Forum Fanatic, FK Pagan
Abnormally fond of dead guys
smolly4@q....... or stormborn@l.......
http://stormborn.tripod.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:54:14 -0700
From:    StormBorn <smolly4@q.......>
Subject: Re: Divia

Kezia wrote:
>> It occurred to me that there are couple of theories nobody has raised as
yet, as to why Divia offered to bring her father across but not her mother.
<snip><<

I pondered your theories, but I still think Divia was 'in love' with
Daddy--particularly given her later behaviour. <g>  But also, I think she
sensed the 'evil' in Lucius--that is, his ruthlessness and casual attitude
towards cruelty.  Perhaps she thought Seline had too soft a heart for
vampirism (theory #3).

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, Dark Trinity, Seducer, Forum Fanatic, FK Pagan
Abnormally fond of dead guys
smolly4@q....... or stormborn@l.......
http://stormborn.tripod.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:29:45 -0500
From:    mclisa <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Characters' Favorite Shakespeare lines

I suspect LC shares one of my favorites, spoken by Puck (I think) in A
Midsummer's Night's Dream: "Lord, what fools these mortals be!"

Also, I can imagine Nick at some point greeting Janette with, "What, my dear
Lady Disdain, are you yet living?" from Much Ado About Nothing.

McLisa (Lisa McDavid)
"That will be trouble".
Listowner, Forkni-l and Fkfic-l
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:16:48 -0700
From:    StormBorn <smolly4@q.......>
Subject: Re: Various

> Kyer will wear a toga.

Kyer, cross-dressing?  Why, I'm shocked!

>>Then (with hideously overdone makeup) she can declare that "I am in LOVE
WITH LUCIEN!" and start stalking him wherever he goes.  (I think I can get
the Inka to help me out on that part.)  Complete with love songs sung in a
key that could kill a cat.<<

<Molly daintily hitches up the hem of her tunica and thwaps! Kyer with a
fresh herring>

>>Should take less than a week to scare the bejeebees out of the Old
Fearless Roman enough for him to pack up his bags without forwarding address
and cut Nicholas a break for a couple a' decades, do you think?<<

Should take less than a minute for him to ensure that you never sing--or
breathe, for that matter--again!

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, Dark Trinity, Seducer, Forum Fanatic, FK Pagan
Abnormally fond of dead guys
smolly4@q....... or stormborn@l.......
http://stormborn.tripod.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:55:24 -0400
From:    Mary Combs <mcombs@e.......>
Subject: Re: Divia's prospects

Molly wrote
> In fact, Lucius might be Seline's patron; that is, he
> might actually own the brothel and Seline, who could
> be either his slave or former slave (freedwoman), runs it.
> Yes, it is a lot like the Mafia. <g>

Yikes, Roman wiseguys and godfathers.
I suddenly flashed on LC nose-to-nose with Robert de Niro.

Mary
mcombs@e....... N&Npacker
http:\\www.erols.com\mcombs
"RL=Real Life. It's that stuff that keeps happening that gets in the way of
that other stuff."--Sue Clark

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:49:12 EDT
From:    KnghtWtch@a.......
Subject: Re: Vivendi/Universal

Hello All,
I'm still watching the activity over at Vevendi/Universal.  And in my daily
stock reports this little notation came up.


Vivendi Universal owns 43 percent of USA Networks television programming
division. It also owns online interactive game portal Uproar Inc.


That's why I believe Mr. Messier should be on our mailing list.  Also Mr.
Bronfman formerly CEO of Seagram's is now titled "CEO of Entertainment" at
Vivendi.  So keep him on your list.

Mr. Jean Marie Messier                  Mr. Edgar Bronfman, Jr.
CEO Vinvendi/Universal Inc.             CEO Ent. Vivendi Universal Inc.

I'll keep everyone informed of any change that occur in the future.
Just keeping the Knight Alive,
KnightWitch ;-]=


CaddyWhacker{first and foremost}, Die Hard, Ravenette with Enforcement
tendencies.
A Unique line of Forever Knight apparel is now available at:
http://hometown.aol.com/knghtwtch/index.html .....and.....
http://home.clear.net.nz/knightraven/pages.html

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 06:23:25 -0500
From:    Tim Phillips <Timp@d.......>
Subject: Re: Various

> Should take less than a week to scare the bejeebees out of the Old Fearless
> Roman enough for him to pack up his bags without forwarding address and cut
> Nicholas a break for a couple a' decades, do you think?

        MMM.  Would the getup frighten LaCroix?   Or would it make
him think:   "A jester!  That is absolutely what my life needs to
make me forget about these difficult children of mine from time to
time!   Be still, girl.  This won't hurt for long.!!"

                :-)
                        Tim

The intention may be to hunt a shark, but does the great white
know he is supposed to be hunted?


 Tim Phillips
 timp@d.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 06:25:38 -0400
From:    Doņa Angel <donaangel@h.......>
Subject: BEN BASS ALERT and REMINDERS

Hi, all!
I'm just reminding ya'll, especially those who are Devoted Fans of The
EXTRAORDINARILY Awesome Ben Bass AND Devoted Followers of The ETERNALLY
Awesome Javier Vachon!!! :) :)=  of some programs The Devastatingly HANDSOME
and EXTREMELY Talented Mr. Bass will be in THIS rest of the month of APRIL--
    #1- As Cheryl posted her entire Monthly list on ForKni-L, you can
STILL see Mr. Bass in the movie "A Killer Among Friends" -on LifeMovie- 25, 26
AND ...I'm hoping that there STILL may be some folks, maybe WAAAAY o're on
the WEST Coast, who will see this in time --
  #2- as I am typing this, RIGHT NOW, The AWESOME Ben Bass can also be seen
in this same movie THIS MORNING *Tuesday*, and also *SUNDAY* *April 29* AND
*MONDAY* *APRIL 30* -- but these will be on some of the ENCORE Channels - so
if you have Digital Cable or maybe {{{I guess}}} even a satillite dish which
might enable you to get a bunch of ENCORE Cable Channels, e.g. ENCORE Action
East, ENCORE Action West, both ENCORE Mystery East AND West, both ENCORE
Westerns East AND West... and what this movie is showing on is "True
Stories" [in my area #158] and "True Stories - West" [in my area #159]
...so, TODAY *TUESDAY* *APR-24*- 4:05 AM to 5:45AM EDT on [Encore] TRUE
Stories cable Channel
***And - *7:05 AM to 8:45 AM EDT* on [Encore] TRUE Stories-WEST
  *SUNDAY* *APR4-29*- 2:30 PM EDT -TRUE Stories Channel-EAST
   AND - 5:30 PM EDT on TRUE Stories Channel-WEST
   AND -11:15 PM EDT on TRUE Stories [East]Channel
*MONDAY* *APR-30*- 2:15AM EDT on TRUE Stories-WEST
---and there will also be some days in the month of MAY, but more about that
some other time!
``````````````````````````````````````````
"A Killer Among Friends" (1992)
a fact-based crime story, the true story of a jealous teen who murdered her
best friend, then moved in with the late girl's family.
Directed by: Charles Robert Carner
Starring: Loretta Swit, Patty Duke, Tiffani-Amber Thiessen, Margaret Welsh,
Angie Rae McKinney, David Cubitt, ***AND Ben Bass as 'Steve'***
Category: Drama // Running Time: 105 minutes // Release year: 1992
````````````````````
And, since this was filmed in 1992, you will get to see a VERY young looking
Ben Bass [WARNING: short hair]...and IMHVaqO, he looks SOOO VERY handsome
then!!! :) :) :)
```````````````````````````````
Well, I gotta go... RL obligations....
Hope ya'll get to enjoy seeing and hearing The EXTRAORDINARILY Awesome One
Who Sorta Looks a LOT Like and DEFINITELY Sounds a LOT Like The ETERNALLY
Awesome Javier D. Vachon !!! :) :)=

~~Enjoy!
Angel a.k.a. Doņa Angel
Devoted VaqDreaming Vaquera/Willing Slave of THE Glorious Spaniard/ Proud
VaqBrat/INCArnate/#2 Defender of Brown-Eyed Vamps/with Urchin, Dark Hearts &
Immortal Beloveds Tendencies
Check out BBFC Web site: http://www.benbassfanclub.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:17:21 EDT
From:    Billie Lee <McCelt2000@a.......>
Subject: Re: Characters' Favorite Shakespeare lines

In a message dated 4/24/01 12:26:46 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
mclisa@m....... writes:

> "Lord, what fools these mortals be!"

Well, hey doesn't LaCroix even say that in an episode of FK?  I am, of
course, brain freezing on which one......... <g>

Forever Yours,

Billie-Lee
mccelt2000@a.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:23:24 EDT
From:    Billie Lee <McCelt2000@a.......>
Subject: Re: Birthday?

Hi again gang,

I said:

> >And then there's the we-should-all-age-so-well Richard Gere and Richard
> >DeanAnderson!! Same goes for our GWD, eh?

And then Rose said...........

>  How about 41 year old Antonio Banderas? <G>

WOW, is Antonio 41?  I didn't know that.  Yup, definitiely need to add him to
the we-should-all-age-so well list ::::::::::::::::drool:::::::::::::::::::
<g>

Thanks Rose!!! :>)

Forever Yours,

Billie-Lee
mccelt2000@a.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 06:50:08 -0700
From:    Lisa McDavid <cecily1349@y.......>
Subject: Roman middle class;scripts

Two posts in one:

1. I think the problem with "middle class" is that we
may have two definitions going. The sense I meant was
a legal term in the Rome of the 70's a.d., eques
(sometimes translated into English as "knight"). It
meant someone enrolled in the Censor's list of men who
owned at least 400,000 sesterces worth of Italian land
and who had received imperial approval to be so
enrolled.  The class status extended to members of
their families.  Middle class/knights could engage in
trade. This legally-defined middle class was fairly
small. It was possible to have much more money,
without or without the landownership, but still
legally  not be middle class.

Senators, who had to have at least a million sesterces
of Italian land, could not engage in trade.

Another thing to remember is that being a freeborn
prostitute, like being an actor or actress or fighting
in the arena, brought the person into the legal
category of infamia, which took away certain civil
rights, especially where marriage was concerned. No
Roman family of social standing was going to want
their son to marry the daughter of a prostitute, no
matter how much money she might have.  It wasn't a
matter of prudery, but of family pride. Romans had
quite a lot of that if they came from the kind of
family Lucius would have.

2.  Of course, whether or not to count something in
the stage-directions is up to the interpreter.
Traditionally we've gone with the script for settings,
but of course others' mileage may vary.

I suspect Seline's house was a very select place, more
like the Victorian sporting house than the usual
crib-like city brothel of Pompeii. It's probably on
the slopes near Pompeii where the fashionable villas
were rather than in the city proper.

McLisa
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:12:14 -0600
From:    Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on the day

Oh lord, better to be breif than tedious.

Or, on the FK vein. ::snicker::
Good wombs hath born bad sons.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:15:51 -0600
From:    Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
Subject: Re: Birthday?

>WOW, is Antonio 41?  I didn't know that.  Yup, definitiely need to add him
>to the we-should-all-age-so well list Thanks Rose!!! :>)

No prob.  I was pretty shocked myself, but it's in my Spanish textbook that
he was born 1960.  Yeek. <G>
               'Rose

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:28:57 EDT
From:    Billie Lee <McCelt2000@a.......>
Subject: Re: Birthday?

Hi there...........

I said to Rose >WOW, is Antonio 41?  I didn't know that.  Yup, definitiely
need to add him the we-should-all-age-so well list Thanks Rose!!! :>)

And Rose replied:

>  No prob.  I was pretty shocked myself, but it's in my Spanish textbook that
>  he was born 1960.  Yeek. <G>

<g> When I hire new staff I am still astonished that people born in the 70's
are over 21 <LOL>.

Personally, no matter how our favorite characters are aging from FK, I would
be glad to see them all back together again for a reunion movie no matter how
they look....and last I checked, they all still look pretty good to me :>)

Forever Yours,

Billie-Lee
mccelt2000@a.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:49:31 -0700
From:    "K. C. Smith" <tigrlady2u@j.......>
Subject: Re: Birthday?

>Personally, no matter how our favorite characters are aging from FK, I would
be glad to see them all back together again for a reunion movie no matter how
they look....and last I checked, they all still look pretty good to me
:>)

 Amen to that!!

KC Smith
tigrlady2u@j.......
Nick/Natpacker with Dark Knightie tendencies.
"I've never met a chocolate I didn't like."
"Opportunity may knock only once, but temptation leans on the doorbell."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:55:08 -0500
From:    "Monica T. Rodriguez" <mrodri14@u.......>
Subject: VS4 story?

Hi all,
yes, I'm still here, reluctantly and resentfully lurking.  I was quite
happy to see that a new V4S story was out.  I didn't pay too much attention
after I saw that it was posted on the website, since I'm not subbed to
fkfic.   But now I've tried to get to it on the V4S website, and I don't
find it there.  Has it not been posted there yet?  Or am I missing something?

thanks,
monica
always lucius luscious lover

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:01:39 EDT
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: VS4 story?

In a message dated Tue, 24 Apr 2001  1:54:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Monica
T. Rodriguez" <mrodri14@u.......> writes:

<<since I'm not subbed to
fkfic.   But now I've tried to get to it on the V4S website, and I don't
find it there.  Has it not been posted there yet?  Or am I missing something?>>

Mel updates the v4s site at fkfanfic.com, and she's had more than her share of
real life lately! I'm sure she'll get it up there as soon as she can. Meanwhile,
I do believe it is up at the ftp site, but I don't have the addy on hand
(someone will, though).

Libs

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 23 Apr 2001 to 24 Apr 2001 (#2001-134)
***************************************************************


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