FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 22 Apr 2001 to 23 Apr 2001 (#2001-133)

Mon, 23 Apr 2001

There are 15 messages totalling 412 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Divia's social status (6)
  2. Various (2)
  3. Query (3)
  4. Forever Knight Fan Fiction Awards: UPDATE
  5. How we know about Divia's mother
  6. Birthday?
  7. Divia's status, my idea :)

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Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:56:09 -0700
From:    Klytaimnestra <lbowman@c.......>
Subject: Divia's social status

I find I disagree in details with McLisa's assessment.  Rome was an 'open
society'; that is to say that the classes, with some exceptions, weren't
fixed.  You could be born a slave and die an obscenely wealthy freedman.
You could be the son of a freedman and, provided you yourself were born
free, you could die an obscenely wealthy senator or consul.  There were
legal marital restrictions, as McLisa says; a senator couldn't marry below a
certain class (couldn't marry a former slave, for example.)

As McLisa says, in Roman law 'family' was defined by the father, and as
Divia had no 'father' (i.e. man her mother was married to, who accepted her
as his daughter) that we know of, no one would marry Divia in order to make
a family connection; she had no family to connect to.  Her relationship with
Lucius was precisely illegitimate; not 'legit', not recognized.

But this doesn't mean that her prospects were "dim", just that they weren't
aristocratic. Rome had, during the time of Divia's life, a huge, flourishing
and wealthy middle class, to a large part of which money mattered a lot more
than aristocratic connections.  Sure noble connections had snob value, but
if you weren't planning to get into politics they had no practical use. A
mother who ran a brothel was not a great social asset, but it wasn't nearly
as bad as it would have been in, say, Victorian England, because
prostitution wasn't illegal, nor even considered evil or sinful; necessary
but vulgar, as McLisa says, like waste disposal.  A mother-in-law who ran a
flourishing brothel, like one who ran a septic-tank cleaning outfit, might
be an embarrassment to an aristocrat, but to a Roman businessman the
question would probably be, how profitable is it?  And how big did you say
that dowry was again?

So Divia's prospects weren't dim, unless she wanted to marry into the
nobility, I'd say. She could have bought herself a perfectly acceptable
wealthy Roman businessman husband with the dowry & education Lucius' money,
and for that matter her mother's flourishing brothel profits, could have
given her.

Unless, of course, she decided to get into prostitution herself, which would
have made it a whole other question.

Kl
--
Klytaimnestra             lbowman@c.......
Fanfiction at http://members.home.net/lbowman

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:46:35 -0700
From:    Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Various

Margie wrote:
> LaCroix can't do it, or won't do it.
> That's why I consider him to be possessive and obsessive

And the show would not have been nearly as much fun if he hadn't have been!
<eg>

McLisa poeticized:
>Roses are red, Violets are blue. So is Nick, When he hasn't had his moo.

Er... Wasn't Nick blue even with his mug of moo?  In fact, considering the
face Janette made that time, maybe the moo is the major source of his blue!
<veg>

:)=
Kyer, kyer@p.......

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:39:27 -0700
From:    "K. C. Smith" <tigrlady2u@j.......>
Subject: Query

 Does anyone remember which episode it was, and who said it... something
about getting caffeine intravenously.

KC Smith
tigrlady2u@j.......
Nick/Natpacker with Dark Knightie tendencies.
"I've never met a chocolate I didn't like."
"Opportunity may knock only once, but temptation leans on the doorbell."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 02:48:13 +0000
From:    "A." <fictionbyA@p.......>
Subject: Re: Divia's social status

Klytaimnestra wrote:
> I find I disagree in details with McLisa's assessment.  Rome was an 'open
> society'; that is to say that the classes, with some exceptions, weren't
> fixed.  You could be born a slave and die an obscenely wealthy freedman.
> You could be the son of a freedman and, provided you yourself were born
> free, you could die an obscenely wealthy senator or consul.

I think saying Rome was an "open society" is a bit innaccurate.
One's "social class" could not really change (unless adopted) though
one's economic class could possibly change.  It is true that a former
slave could become extremely wealthy and the son of a freedman (the
son would be a citizen with the right to hold political office, unlike
the father) could rise to become a senator.  However, these are the
rare exceptions and not the norm.  Most freedmen lived in poverty.
The gap between rich and poor was expansive, and the chances to
improve on your circumstances were not good.  I am curious where you
read that there was "a huge, flourishing and wealthy middle class".
What do you mean by middle class here?

I would be more inclined to believe that Divia's prospects were dim.
She couldn't have "bought herself a perfectly acceptable wealthy Roman
businessman".  She probably wouldn't have much say in who she married,
nor do I think a "respectable" Roman man would want to.  To have a
wife that other people would talk about, particularly in a scandolous
way (assuming Divia's mother was a whore), would not really jive with
Roman sensibilities.  Considering Lucius' connections, I think perhaps
Divia could have been married off to a military man (though not
someone of social standing).  Personally, I don't think the prospects
of many women were particularly bright.  They just didn't have the
kind of self-determination that I think most of us take for granted
these days!

I think it would be pretty interesting if Divia's mother were another
man's wife, and not a prostitute as some have speculated.

later gators,

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:57:56 -0500
From:    "Nancy E. Kaminski" <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Forever Knight Fan Fiction Awards: UPDATE

HAVE YOU REGISTERED?
====================
There's still time to register to vote in the 2000 Forever Knight Fan Fiction
awards. Voting is open until May 10. Simply stop by
http://www.nancykam.com/voterid.htm to send in your registration. I'll send you
your voter ID number ASAP.

CHECK OUT THE FINALISTS
=======================
We have a fine assembly of finalists in the Awards. Check them out at
http://www.nancykam.com/finalists.htm -- read the entries and vote for the story
of your choice!

VOTE!
=====
After you've read the entries, go to http://www.nancykam.com/vote.htm and cast
your votes! Voting is open until midnight, CDT, May 10.

RESULTS
=======
The results will be posted no later than May 30, and most likely sooner.

=============================
Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@m.......
Awards Administrator
=============================

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 22:51:30 -0400
From:    Mary Combs <mcombs@e.......>
Subject: Re: Divia's social status

Klytaimnestra wrote:

> Rome had, during the time of Divia's life, a huge,
> flourishing  and wealthy middle class,

Certainly not "huge" by any stretch of the imagination.
According to Aries & Dubuy's "A History of Private Life," the Roman middle
class "was not a large group, in terms of percentage of the population it
numbered in the single digits."

Mary
mcombs@e....... N&Npacker
http:\\www.erols.com\mcombs
"RL=Real Life. It's that stuff that keeps happening that gets in the way of
that other stuff."--Sue Clark

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:15:47 -0700
From:    Emily Hanson <emilymhanson@y.......>
Subject: Re: Query

I think it was Schanke, but I can't remember which ep.

--- "K. C. Smith" <tigrlady2u@j.......> wrote:
>  Does anyone remember which episode it was, and who said it... something
> about getting caffeine intravenously.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:40:52 EDT
From:    KaAG@a.......
Subject: Re: Query

In a message dated 4/22/01 9:43:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tigrlady2u@j....... writes:

<< something
 about getting caffeine intravenously.
  >>
that was a comment made by Schanke.  I forget which episode but I think it
was 2nd season...

and BTW- you CAN take caffeine intravenously.  We use it in the Newborn ICU
routinely!

karen

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 00:33:07 -0700
From:    StormBorn <smolly4@q.......>
Subject: Re: Divia's social status

I agree with Andrea's points for the most part.  Rome was far from an open
society--indeed, if Lucius' family was from Pompeii (and he didn't just have
a vacation villa there), then even though he was a patrician, his social
status was slightly inferior to a patrician of a Roman family.  As important
as money was to Romans, class and bloodlines were more important.

>> I think it would be pretty interesting if Divia's mother were another
man's wife, and not a prostitute as some have speculated.<<

Sorry, but it's not speculation:  it's in the script, and she is dressed as
a prostitute.

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, Dark Trinity, Seducer, Forum Fanatic, FK Pagan
Abnormally fond of dead guys
smolly4@q....... or stormborn@l.......
http://stormborn.tripod.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:33:14 +0000
From:    "A." <fictionbyA@p.......>
Subject: Re: Divia's social status

StormBorn wrote:
> Sorry, but it's not speculation:  it's in the script, and she is dressed as
> a prostitute.

I am not familiar with the dress of Roman women so I did not realize
she was dressed for the part of the prostitute.  What sort of clothing
did prostitutes wear in Roman times, I am just curious.  As for it
being in the script, I don't recall that (of course, I also haven't
seen FK in quite some time), please refresh my memory of what was said
regarding that.

peace,

A.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 06:04:40 -0700
From:    Lisa McDavid <cecily1349@y.......>
Subject: How we know about Divia's mother

The script specifies that the Pompeii scenes take
place in a brothel of which Seline is the madam, and
that the young women in the scene are prostitutes.
Also, the red toga Seline is wearing was the
legally-required dress of a Roman prostitute.

McLisa
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:07:39 EDT
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Divia's social status

In a message dated Mon, 23 Apr 2001  8:29:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "A."
<fictionbyA@p.......> writes:

<<As for it
being in the script, I don't recall that (of course, I also haven't
seen FK in quite some time), please refresh my memory of what was said
regarding that.>>

It was actually in the *script* as in the printed script, I don't think anything
was said in the dialogue (though it has been a while for me too! hahah What an
excuse to dig out my video tapes!)

Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:08:52 -0600
From:    Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
Subject: Re: Birthday?

>And then there's the we-should-all-age-so-well Richard Gere and Richard
>Dean Anderson!! Same goes for our GWD, eh?

How about 41 year old Antonio Banderas? <G>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:38:01 -0700
From:    Lisa McDavid <cecily1349@y.......>
Subject: Divia's status, my idea :)

H'mm, I was assuming she would have resented not being
able to share her father's exalted status.  As an
ex-general (legate), he has to be a senator because
legates were appointed by the senate (although of
course nobody the emperor didn't approve was
appointed). That was roughly the equivalent of holding
a title in later European society, as far as social
rank and prestige went.

McLisa

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:12:15 -0500
From:    Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject: Re: Various

At 03:46 PM 4/22/01 -0700, Kyer wrote:
>Margie wrote:
>>LaCroix can't do it, or won't do it. That's why I consider
>>him to be possessive and obsessive
>
>And the show would not have been nearly as much fun if he hadn't have been!
><eg>

Oh well, of course.  That goes without saying.  :)

Gee, the way Kyer's been going lately, she might just start wearing a toga
voluntarily soon.  <eg>

Bring 'em back alive!
Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
Cousin of the Knight ~ N&NPacker
CotK Site -- http://lavender.fortunecity.com/evildead/879/

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End of FORKNI-L Digest - 22 Apr 2001 to 23 Apr 2001 (#2001-133)
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