FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 21 Apr 2001 to 22 Apr 2001 (#2001-132)

Sun, 22 Apr 2001

There are 13 messages totalling 459 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Excerpt from book on Vampires on Film
  2. Canadian 1st season tapes
  3. Divia (3)
  4. Fw: Admin:  FORKNI-L Rules (2)
  5. Divia's match (2)
  6. Divia's status
  7. Divia and Divia's match
  8. Ancient Rome (Slightly OT, but sounds like y'all could help..)
  9. JADFE Archives

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Date:    Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:14:26 -0700
From:    Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Excerpt from book on Vampires on Film

--- WRDRR@a....... wrote:
>>It said something to the effect that Forever Knight was the best of the
vamp offerings on T.V.<<

I guess no one here ever doubted that. 100% agree, and not just T.V. IMO

I whished you knew the exact title of the book, I'm really interested.

Sunny

=====
Countess -- Twilight Knightie, Immortal Beloved, Dark Trinity, with UF and
Enforcement tendencies

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Date:    Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:29:11 -0700
From:    Shirley Davis <pitbull@d.......>
Subject: Canadian 1st season tapes

For those interested in a set of Forever Knight 1st season Canadian version
please contact me PRIVATELY, OFF LIST. Any response made to the list will
go unanswered.  Cost is price of 11 tapes (38.50) plus shipping
priority/insured.

Thank You.
Shirley

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Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:10:48 EDT
From:    Marel Darby <Frostsaint2@a.......>
Subject: Re: Divia

smolly4@q....... writes:

> >she could've expected to make a well-connected match.<<

> <snip>would Divia have looked that far ahead?  In any case, I
>  don't think she resented her father, or she wouldn't have brought him
>  across.

Well, assuming Divia was meant to be in her mid-teens, was that
the age when most Roman females entered marriage? I thought I'd read
that, but I could be mistaken. No, I don't think she resented her father,
either, but I was just felt that, given that she was the scion of such an
important figure, acknowledged or not, her illegitimacy might not have
been such a burden.

Marel

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Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:47:53 -0500
From:    mclisa <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Fw: Admin:  FORKNI-L Rules

Roses are red,
Violets are blue.
So is Nick,
When he hasn't had his moo.
-- McLisa, who hasn't had her coffee yet

If you need a hand or have any questions please don't hesitate to
contact Don Fasig <Argent@e.......> or Lisa McDavid
<mclisa@m.......>.

For tips on managing your Forever Knight  subscriptions please visit Don's
help page at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7139/fk-lists.htm

List digests are archived at:
http://members.theglobe.com/KnightWind3/forkni.htm

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MAY BE PERMANENT.

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  .
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McLisa (Lisa McDavid)
"That will be trouble".
Listowner, Forkni-l and Fkfic-l
mclisa@m.......

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Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:54:22 EDT
From:    Billie Lee <McCelt2000@a.......>
Subject: Re: Fw: Admin:  FORKNI-L Rules

In a message dated 4/22/01 2:45:16 PM !!!First Boot!!!, mclisa@m.......
writes:

> Roses are red,
>  Violets are blue.
>  So is Nick,
>  When he hasn't had his moo.
>  -- McLisa, who hasn't had her coffee yet
>
LOL, McL,

What a fun way to start the rules and my day :>)

Thanks Listmommy!!

Forever Yours,
Billie-Lee (who has already had waaaaaaaaaaaay too much coffee since she woke
up at 0500 this am <argh!!>
mccelt2000@a.......

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Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:36:27 -0500
From:    mclisa <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Divia's match

Ahm, actually Divia couldn't have looked forward to much of a match because
her mother was a prostitute and madam.  Also, her mother was almost
certainly a freedwoman  No Roman family of any standing would have taken
such a match. It would have been too much of a disgrace.  Romans didn't have
the attitude of their medieval and renaissance descendants when it came to
illegitimacy. An illegitimate descent could confer no social glory on the
descendants. Descent from a prostitute, no matter who the father was, could
only bring disgrace.

Her father would have had to give her a larger than norrmal dowry to marry
her even into the lower middle class, and probably even then only a family
of freedmen would have considered it. Only the lower classes would have
looked at a dowry from Seline because of its source.

Divia's prospects as a vampire were much brighter than as a bride.

McLisa (Lisa McDavid)
"That will be trouble".
Listowner, Forkni-l and Fkfic-l
mclisa@m.......

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Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:03:56 -0500
From:    Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject: Re: Divia

At 11:39 AM 4/21/01 -0700, StormBorn wrote:

>How easy is it for any of us to let go of those we love?  And if vampiric
>passions are deeper, stronger (just speculating), how much harder would it
>be for LaCroix, especially when there were times when they were happy
>together?

It's hard for many parents to let go of their children, but most of them do
it (okay, up to a point <g>).  LaCroix can't do it, or won't do it.  That's
why I consider him to be possessive and obsessive.

Bring 'em back alive!
Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
Cousin of the Knight ~ N&NPacker
CotK Site -- http://lavender.fortunecity.com/evildead/879/

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:05:55 -0500
From:    mclisa <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Divia's status

Lucius was _not_ Divia's paterfamilias. In Roman law, an illegitimate child
didn't have a paterfamilias or any other father, even the mother's.  Instead
he/she was sui juris, meaning "of his own law" and subject to no one's
jurisdiction. Come to think of it, this may explain some of  Divia's
attitude.

Also, it's highly unlikely that she ever saw any legitimate wife or
children Lucius may have had.  She took her mother's social status under
both Roman law and custom. Besides, the Roman upper class mind was a lot
like the Victorian. You just didn't mix your children if they weren't also
the children of your wife or former wife.

McLisa (Lisa McDavid)
"That will be trouble".
Listowner, Forkni-l and Fkfic-l
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:31:49 -0500
From:    mclisa <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Re: Divia

----- Original Message -----
From: Marel Darby <Frostsaint2@a.......>
> Since Roman society was less hypocritical about
> sexual needs, would her mother's profession have been frowned on, or would
> she be accorded respect as a successful businesswoman?

Almost all  Roman prostitutes were slaves. There were a few freeborn, but
yes, their profession was not regarded with any respect. It was sort of like
being a garbage collector in modern society: legal, filling a need, but not
something that conferred status.  If Seline had been a slave, Divia's status
as the daughter of a freedwoman limited her marital prospects no matter who
her father was. In law, she didn't have a father.  If  Seline was actually a
slave when Divia was born, then Divia was born a slave and became a
freedwoman herself. This meant that by law she could not marry a senator
(the political aristocracy) or the descendant of a senator in the male line
down to the great-grandson.

> Also, there has been some mention that Divia would bitterly resent her
> illegitimate status, but would the bastard child of a rich and influential
> man have enjoyed more status than the legitimate child of a poorer one?

No, that's medieval and renaissance attitude. The bastard child had no
social status and marrying one conferred no glory on the spouse, much less
the descendants. It might have financial benefits, but upper-Romans from
aristocratic families cared much more about ancestors when it came to
marriage.  The only family which might regard an illegimate connection to
Lucius as an advantage would be one whose own founders had been freedmen,
and they lacked social clout however rich they might be.


> didn't acknowledge her legally, it must surely have been widely suspected.
> Since he seemed an affectionate father, he would surely have offered a very
> generous dowry to prospective suitors to compensate for her illegitimacy.
> In which case, she could've expected to make a well-connected match.

Although it was legal for him to give a dowry, again, the idea that a good
dowry can make a socially dubious origin acceptable is post-Roman. The only
way a Roman nobleman (i.e., senatorial status) would be prepared to marry
Divia, if she wasn't been born a slave and therefore debarred from marriage
to a man of the senatorial class, would be if he was desperately poor. Since
Roman senatorial status depended on owning at least a million sesterces of
Italian land, and middle class status on 400,000 sesterces of the same
(legal definitions and there were official class rosters), he would have
already lost the status Lucius wanted to buy for him in exchange for
marrying Divia.

McLisa (Lisa McDavid)
"That will be trouble".
Listowner, Forkni-l and Fkfic-l
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:39:12 EDT
From:    Marel Darby <Frostsaint2@a.......>
Subject: Re: Divia's match

mclisa@m....... writes:

>  Ahm, actually Divia couldn't have looked forward to much of a match
> because <snip>An illegitimate descent could confer no social glory on the
>  descendants. Descent from a prostitute, no matter who the father was, could
>  only bring disgrace.

Ah, that's interesting -- that Roman mores should be more dismissive
in this regard than some later societies. Was the mother's profession
more damning than the illegitimate status?  Would Divia's prospects
have been better if she'd been born male?

Several emperors adopted grown-up male heirs whom society suspected
of being their illegitimate offspring -- but I assume it's the outward form
that was important. In these cases their mothers were married and perhaps
their husbands cuckolded, but without proof, society could look the other
way.

>  Divia's prospects as a vampire were much brighter than as a bride.

Or as it turned out, not. <g>

Marel

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:52:45 -0700
From:    StormBorn <smolly4@q.......>
Subject: Divia and Divia's match

Margie wrote:
>> It's hard for many parents to let go of their children, but most of them
do it (okay, up to a point <g>).  LaCroix can't do it, or won't do it.
That's why I consider him to be possessive and obsessive.<<

I agree that he's possessive and obsessive, but that's part of his allure,
for me.  Also, since I see him as being in love with Nick, I can understand
that.  However, even if we look at him as only a parent, he's a Roman parent
and thus his 'jurisdiction' extends over Nick until death.  Furthermore,
he's a vampire 'parent' which connotes more, to me, than a simple, "Uh oh,
I'm pregnant."  LaCroix *chose* Nick, gave him his blood, brought him back
from the doorway of death...

And yet, on the other hand, LaCroix's not so possessive of his other
children (such as Francesca and Alexandra), so to me that means Nick is more
to him than just another fledgling.

Thank you, McLisa, for clearing up the question of Divia's social status.
It's great having a ListMommy who can help us out at times like these. :)

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, Dark Trinity, Seducer, Forum Fanatic, FK Pagan
Abnormally fond of dead guys
smolly4@q....... or stormborn@l.......
http://stormborn.tripod.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:36:37 -0700
From:    Lady Ariake <lady_ariake@y.......>
Subject: Ancient Rome (Slightly OT, but sounds like y'all could help..)

Since our dear Lucien is originally Roman (after
seeing a few eps I am drifting farther and farther
into his fans' camp) and from all the discussions
there are several people on this list who are very
well-informed about Roman history...question:

Does anyone know a good source for a
history/explanation of the Praetorian Guard?  I know
the basics, but I'd like some practical, working
information about who the men in it were, how they
were chosen to serve, what, exactly, it entailed,
besides hanging around the background of movies like
"Gladiator."  Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Jennifer

=====
"Vampirism--it does a body good!" Tom Servo, reviewing "The Wild World of Bat
Woman"

If Anita doesn't want to be Jean-Claude's human servant, can I volunteer?

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:10:56 -0400
From:    Dianne Bugg <ladylc@s.......>
Subject: JADFE Archives

Okay, I've managed to keep RL at bay long enough to update the archives, but
I'm not sure I've gotten all the broken links.  If you find one, please
notify me so I can fix it.  If you notice, there are no longer any stories
by James Walkswithwind or Nancy Taylor.  Both asked that their work be
removed.  I still have copies of their work if you want to read it.  Just
email me and I'll send you a copy.


Dianne, LadyLC

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End of FORKNI-L Digest - 21 Apr 2001 to 22 Apr 2001 (#2001-132)
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