FORKNI-L
FORKNI-L Digest - 29 Jan 2001 to 30 Jan 2001 - Special issue (#2001-33)
Tue, 30 Jan 2001
There are 32 messages totalling 1017 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Lacroix Mortalfied
2. Warm Wishes for Rose, Kyer & Anyone else who has that THING going around
(2)
3. YKYHBWTMFK
4. Raffle #29
5. FK Alumni - VCR Alert
6. Hello!
7. Warm Wishes for Rose,
8. Right Place, Right Time (16)
9. Apologies
10. Little FK Moments...
11. Last Knight
12. Forever Knight, Showcase, Tapes and DVD
13. Questions for fanfic (3)
14. Questions, questions, questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:03:15 EST
From: Billie Lee <McCelt2000@a.......>
Subject: Re: Lacroix Mortalfied
In a message dated 1/16/01 7:53:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Laudon1965@a....... writes:
> Okay, they say you should never explain a joke, but I was
> referring to a passage from Shakespeare's "Taming of the Shrew"
Well, hey Laurie, I am more behind on my Shakespeare than I am on my email,
so I am glad you explained it!
>
> Pet. You lie, in faith; for you are call'd plain Kate,
> And bonny Kate, and sometimes Kate the curst;
> But, Kate, the prettiest Kate in Christendom;
AH HAH, *now* I get it <g>!
> If you already knew this...in the words of Emily Littele:
> "Never mind." <g>
Nope, didn't so thanks very much to you and the Bonnie's too <VBG>!
Forever Yours,
Billie-Lee
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:26:05 EST
From: Billie Lee <McCelt2000@a.......>
Subject: Warm Wishes for Rose,
Kyer & Anyone else who has that THING going around
Oh Dear,
I am sorting my mail and it looks like an awful lot of folks are sick, or
getting better from being sick.........my best wishes that all are right
better, right quick!!
I suppose we could have LC (not for Kyer, though, <g>) come bring us across
and we'd never get sick again, but I am not sure it is worth the price of
immortality and an eternity of drinking blood <G> I don't mind at all
watching someone else like our FK vamps do it, but not sure I could handle it.
Lots of good wishes and virtual kleenexes (<-sp? Oh well) to all who need
them! I think this makes near the post limit for me today, go figure...back
to lurking :>)
Forever Yours,
Billie-Lee
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:44:43 -0800
From: Brenda <bcammarata@h.......>
Subject: YKYHBWTMFK
YKYHBWTMFK when you see a license plate frame that reads:
Families are Forever and you think of LC and his children.
Carpe Noctem
Brenda
UCCelebration 2000, Wolfville 2000
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:15:15 -0500
From: "Susan M. Garrett" <susanmgarrett@e.......>
Subject: Re: Raffle #29
Keoki Harman <inion_daughter@h.......> said:
>I'm letting my inexperience show, but what reffle...
A Forever Knight letter raffle has been going on since May 1997 we're
reached Raffle #30. You go to the URL below, you write a letter to
support FK to one of the addresses listed, and you enter the raffle. We've
given away signed items, props, and all sorts of things related to FK and
the cast.
You can also see all of the items we've given away and who got them.
fkraffle@a....... --
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2167/raffle.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:23:13 -0800
From: Cheryl Hoffman <dayabaygal@y.......>
Subject: FK Alumni - VCR Alert
Hi all --
Just a quick one, I'll get the full list off to you
over the weekend when I've got better computer access.
But I wanted to let you know of these that I found for
the first few days of the month.
CATHERINE DISHER:
Conspiracy of Silence Lifetime 3
NIGEL BENNETT:
Her Desperate Choice Lifetime 5
Model by Day Life-Movie 1
BEN BASS:
A Killer Among Friends Life-Movie 3,17,18
VON FLORES:
Johnny Mnemonic TNT 2,3
March isn't a long list, but there are a few more
goodies coming up. Maybe I'll also have a chance to
check out the TV series along with the movies.
Cya Later,
Cheryl
(who left here sig in CHINA------)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 16:10:21 +0000
From: Jeannie Ecklund <jecklund@l.......>
Subject: Re: Hello!
Good to have you back, KC. I'm eagerly awaiting more Pipe Dreams.
This morning I have a sweet baby in my arms. The four legged kind. I
got a new dog last knight :). She's about 8 oz Chihuahua/yorkie mix
favoring the chi at this time. Tiny knobby head big bat wing ears.
cutest little thing.
Her names: Nicki Knight. She's so tiny. Black and brown, 6 weeks old.
She arrived at 4:am. My sister brought her from Los Vegas.
Jeannie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:46:01 -0700
From: Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: Warm Wishes for Rose,
Billie-Lee wrote:
> I am sorting my mail and it looks like an awful lot of folks are sick, or
> getting better from being sick.........
Yep. We'z one bunch of sick puppies, we'z is. <g>
But as for having to drink blood...
I'm beginning to think that it might not be so bad to be a vampire iffen I'm
going to have to be drinking such noxious stuff as garlic and horseradish
anyway to keep this THING under control.
But you're right, BL, under no circumstances would I want LaCroix as my
'personal physician.'
:)=
Kyer, kyer@p.......
Knightie Forever, even if something dire does seem to have befallen the
Knightie and the Le Mis websites.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:32:02 -0600
From: Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
At 09:24 AM 1/29/01 -0500, Tim Phillips wrote:
> Perhaps not. I have also felt that Nicholas followed Natalie into
>the abyss on nothing more than his faith in her. ... You can interpret
>the end of Last Knight in positive terms.That he has finally left the
>Eternal Night and stepped into daylight with Natalie at his side.
Urrrrk! I know I've said this a million times, but obviously that's not
gonna keep me from saying it again.
Faith, yes. I think that's one of the things that Nick needs. But FK
isn't about death; it's about life. If the only way Nick can "step into
the daylight" is to die and go off to heaven, that, to me, is not a
positive message. It's a very negative message, carrying negative
conotations about what it is to live life on earth.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:48:19 -0600
From: Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
At 10:19 AM 1/29/01 -0500, Portia 1 wrote:
>Anyone read or seen Miller's "The Crucible?"
I saw the movie version, not the play.
> John Proctor is ... a hero to me b/c he ultimately refuses to compromise
> himself, no matter that he is fully aware that it will lead to his death.
> He himself knows that he is no "hero"; he simply can't compromise on that
> which is most important to himself, which is the truth of his fundamental
> self.
I agree that he's a hero, and I admire him for not compromising, but I'm
not sure if that is really what makes him a hero. That may just be plain
stubborness or his own emotional makeup.
I hope I'm remembering the movie correctly, and I think it was really
supposed to be an allegory for the McCarthy hearings, but I think that what
was important about what he does is that by refusing to admit to witchcraft
and by refusing to name other supposed witches, he strikes a killing blow
against the witchcraft trials. The persecutors can't continue what they're
doing when their victims refuse to co-operate. Proctor was a hero to me
because he sacrificed himself, and in so doing, saved others.
>Nick can't give up on his committment to becoming who he fundamentally
>wants to be, and I love him for that courage. I guess the greatest heroes
>are the ones never give up striving for their goals despite their faults,
>whether the achieve them or not.
I admire Nick for not giving up on his committment also, but to me, that
doesn't mean dying. That means staying here on earth, among the living,
and continuing to strive for what he wants to be.
> Nick can't give up on his committment to becoming who he fundamentally
> wants to be, and I love him for that courage. I guess the greatest
> heroes are the ones never give up striving for their goals despite their
> faults, whether the achieve them or not.
>
>Portia
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:49:54 EST
From: Tammie Foley <X7xAngelx7x@a.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
In a message dated 1/29/01 5:46:26 PM Mountain Standard Time, treeleaf@i.......
writes:
<<
> John Proctor is ... a hero to me b/c he ultimately refuses to compromise
> himself, no matter that he is fully aware that it will lead to his death.
> He himself knows that he is no "hero"; he simply can't compromise on that
> which is most important to himself, which is the truth of his fundamental
> self.
I agree that he's a hero, and I admire him for not compromising, but I'm
not sure if that is really what makes him a hero. That may just be plain
stubborness or his own emotional makeup. >>
You guys also gotta remember that he got into this mess because he was
sleeping around with a kid (Abigail something)....
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:59:35 -0600
From: Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject: Apologies
Argggh! Apologies for the extra quoting and also for sending out messages
without a sig attached. (Note to self - Say ten times, "Click on the sig
thingy *before* working on the message.")
Bring 'em back alive!
Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
Cousin of the Knight ~ N&NPacker
CotK Site -- http://lavender.fortunecity.com/evildead/879/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:13:29 -0800
From: Extremis <e_blanco1@y.......>
Subject: Re: Little FK Moments...
Hi Bonnie,
Regarding the imaginary FK soundtrack, you've made
some great choices and had me setting aside some
actual grade "A" vinyl that I haven't cranked up in
ages-Thanks! Let me see if I can guess your FK/Led Zep
choices: "Battle Of Evermore", "Achilles Last Stand"
and "Nobody's Fault But Mine"-any of those in there?
And while we're on a classic rock jag, maybe the
Stones' "Dancing With Mr.D" and The Moody Blues'
"Night's In White Satin"? If anybody could relate to
"never reaching the end", our gothic trio could. Toss
in some Joy Division ("Shadow Play"), Judas Priest
("Love Bites") and maybe Kiss ("Almost Human" or "God
Of Thunder"), and you'd have your recipe for tinitus
all squared away. <g> Wait! One more: The Kinks'
"Celluloid Heroes". I can easily picture Nick walking
past the stars on Hollywood Blvd., remembering his
affair with...who? Marilyn Monroe, maybe? Is there any
FK fanfic out there about a meeting between these two?
Or maybe helping Bogart in Sam Spade mode crack a
case?
Eric
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:22:10 EST
From: WRDRR@a.......
Subject: Re: Last Knight
In a message dated 1/29/01 2:23:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
STONEB@g....... writes:
<< guilt at ending their unlives against the guilt he would feel if he were
(ultimately) responsible for one more human death >>
I think this sums up the reason Nick asked LC to do the deed. Nick just
killed his One True Love (not the Caddy). What chance did he have of
preventing himself from ever killing again? His choice, die or kill again,
if not now then eventually, even if it was another 200 years. Could he
continue to risk others' lives while he searched for a cure? He decided he
couldn't let other people keep paying for his mistake. Not a case of
suicide, but of self-sacrifice.
Casting T. F. Stone
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:35:44 EST
From: WRDRR@a.......
Subject: Re: Warm Wishes for Rose,
Kyer & Anyone else who has that THING going around
For qone with that thingey going around,
Phenylpropanolamine is still available by prescription altho your marginally
informed doctor may not know it. Have your physick write for Entex LA and
get extra. If you don't have BP problems, smoke, take BC etc. you shouldn't
have a problem. The compound was pulled largely becoz people don't read
their product label where it says "do not take if you have the following
conditions: "
So let's not hear that any more FK'ers are suffering from the 'computer
virus'. ;-)
CTFS
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:54:47 -0500
From: Gwenn Musicante <gwennm@h.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......> wrote:
>But FK isn't about death; it's about life. If the only way Nick
>can "step into the daylight" is to die and go off to heaven, that, to
>me, is not a positive message.
Absolutely Margie! It is in life that he will find what he is looking for,
not death. Nick said it himself at the end of "Near Death." He said, "
Forgiveness is not something that you ask for, it's something that you earn.
Here, among the living." He had to live to achive the humanity he sought.
Gwenn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 05:35:28 -0800
From: June Williams <mssivan@y.......>
Subject: Forever Knight, Showcase, Tapes and DVD
Reading that Showcase was still airing FK really has
me thinking. SciFi/USA networks claimed that the
trouble in obtaining FK rights was the need for so
many parties to sign off on a deal that frankly didn't
have much of a $$$ incentive. Does that not apply in
Canada? Am I missing something here. Tapes and DVD had
the same problem, or so we have been told. Maybe a
certain time limit has been reached where this can now
be possible? Any legal eagles out there to check it
out?
===================================================
=====
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
http://www.mediafans.com
Cousin,Valentine,Closet Knightie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:42:42 -0500
From: m chamberlain <mcham_thorne@h.......>
Subject: Questions for fanfic
In hopes of adding some authenticity to an FK story I'm working on, I need
some help with the following questions:
1. Could anybody suggest the name/type of a small handgun which could be
used as a murder weapon? (No, I'm not planning on killing anyone! I'd just
like to do better than "She was killed by a single shot from a small gun.")
2. What kind of car did Schanke drive? I think it was a Chevy
something-or-other.
3. Does anybody know an appropriate form of address for an aristocratic man
in 15th C. Italy? "Signor" seems a bit too modern and commonplace.
If anybody can give me any help, please let me know off-list. Thanks. I'll
now return to lurking.
Mary
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:20:24 EST
From: Tammie Foley <X7xAngelx7x@a.......>
Subject: Re: Questions for fanfic
In a message dated 1/29/01 9:17:26 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mcham_thorne@h....... writes:
<< 1. Could anybody suggest the name/type of a small handgun which could be
used as a murder weapon? (No, I'm not planning on killing anyone! I'd just
like to do better than "She was killed by a single shot from a small gun.")
a PPK. its small and what James Bond Uses
2. What kind of car did Schanke drive? I think it was a Chevy
something-or-other.
I think it was a Chevy too
3. Does anybody know an appropriate form of address for an aristocratic man
in 15th C. Italy? "Signor" seems a bit too modern and commonplace.
signore is correct. the actual translation of "signore" or modernly spelled
"signor" means "lord" so its like saying "my lord" to an english aristocrat.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:25:20 -0500
From: Portia 1 <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
At 06:32 PM 1/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
>If the only way Nick can "step into
>the daylight" is to die and go off to heaven, that, to me, is not a
>positive message. It's a very negative message, carrying negative
>conotations about what it is to live life on earth.
I wouldn't like to think it was the only way he could have ever attained
"mortality!" I think the show ended on a tragic note -- I would have liked
to see him achieve the victory of his quest! But, if he did die, (as some
of us deranged ones see it "g"), it's nice to speculate that he and Natalie
were able to find happiness in a realm where they both could be fulfilled.
It was an incredibly sad end to the show, but, on some metaphysical level,
perhaps we can find a positive resolution in what happened. And this next
comment may be blasted, (hope the listmommy has set up the abestos
shields!) but I'm glad the series ended with (oh, I'm gonna pay for this)
some kind of resolution.
Nick's death was shocking and grievous, but it wasn't completely out of
bounds for where the character had arrived by the end of that season and by
the end of that ep. Both the season and the ep galloped through a series
of events with the destructiveness of a run away train, and Nick and Nat
(as well as LaCroix and Janette, in their own ways) were victims of that
progression (to say nothing of Vachon, Urs, Screed, Tracy, and poor, dear
Don). And the tone of the last season was certainly darker and seemed to
build to the tragic end.
If the series had ended with no resolution (ie. a reg ep or, worse, a
cliffhanger!), I would have been incredibly disturbed and disappointed. If
the story had ended with Nick moving on, I would have felt bitterly cheated
(as I did with the QLeap ending). If Nick had become reconciled and at
peace with his vampirism, it would have been a cheat (in my mind, granted)
of the quest that I saw as essential to his nature. The only way to
reconcile me to this ending would have had to have been that it was
justified by very different events than what we saw in the last season.
The only other ending apparent to me at this moment would have been that he
attained his mortality and was able to make the life of which he dreamed.
I would have liked to see such a culmination, but it would have needed at
least a few eps to work out all of the details of "what happened after." "g"
Well...that's my load of piffle.... "g"
Portia
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:40:26 -0800
From: "David J. Duncan" <dante0220@y.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
Hi Everyone:
In terms of endings...well, here goes....
I personally don't believe that it was the end
(as anyone who's keeping up with my "Dubois
Chronicles" storyline, the Virtual Fourth Season,
or any one of (count 'em)--the excellent
stories!!
Besides...if Portia's right...well, there's
always the popular motiff in TV--nobody is ever
really, totally dead--if the ratings demand
otherwise... <g>
Night-night, guys....It's my bed time.<zzzzz>
David
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:45:11 -0600
From: Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
At 09:54 PM 1/29/01 -0500, Gwenn Musicante wrote:
>He had to live to achive the humanity he sought.
Exactly. Or, to put it another way, he had to live as a human to become a
human.
Hmmm, isn't that what Nat was always saying in a way?
Of course, I don't know what that does to my previous theory about what
"the cure" would be. But what the heck. Two theories is just twice as much
to think about. <g>
Bring 'em back alive!
Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
Cousin of the Knight ~ N&NPacker
CotK Site -- http://lavender.fortunecity.com/evildead/879/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:13:23 -0500
From: Portia 1 <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
At 07:49 PM 1/29/01 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/29/01 5:46:26 PM Mountain Standard Time, treeleaf@i.......
>writes:
>
><<
> > John Proctor is ... a hero to me b/c he ultimately refuses to compromise
> > himself, no matter that he is fully aware that it will lead to his death.
> > He himself knows that he is no "hero"; he simply can't compromise on that
> > which is most important to himself, which is the truth of his fundamental
> > self.
>
> I agree that he's a hero, and I admire him for not compromising, but I'm
> not sure if that is really what makes him a hero. That may just be plain
> stubborness or his own emotional makeup. >>
Yeah -- that same "stubborness" that led, legend claims, Galileo to mutter
"but it *does* move" as he made his way from his excommunicaiton trial,
wherein he *recanted* his claims that the earth moves just as surely as did
the other heavenly bodies. Galileo never stood up to his oppressors, but
his committment to the integrity of his vision led him to continue to
secretly write up his findings and theories during the long years of his
subsequent house arrest. John wasn't a "hero" in the grand, traditional
view, but a hero to his own convictions.
>
>You guys also gotta remember that he got into this mess because he was
>sleeping around with a kid (Abigail something)....
Yeah, I commented on that because it's one of his flaws and keeps him from
being the traditional "shining armour" hero, and is the "shadow" that all
the more throws his courage into highlight. And, I haven't seen the movie,
but reading, watching, and studing the play (for research and personal
enjoyment), I seem to remember that John *was* willing to admit to
witchcraft, at one point, to save his life. Ultimately, however, he
couldn't do it because he would have to sign his *name* to the confession
and, in the end, he couldn't compromise his sense of integrity to
*himself.* He didn't die to make a stand against the evil that was being
done to his neighbors and his community, but to save his *self.* In fact,
more than once, he says something along the lines of, "I'm not like them,
I'm not worthy to be numbered with them, to die like them -- they die for
their faith." He is speaking of the other condemned prisoners, and he
feels this is a lack in himself. The play itself *is* a condemnation of
McCarthysm, but *John* is a celebration of the individual.
And, as for Nick, I don't condone suicide, but his choice of death was
certainly a grand gesture, in some metaphysical level on the same lines as
Don Quixote pitting himself against the windmills and fighting the battles
in his mind, no matter what the oposition against him, or even the probable
futility of his actions. In *Nick's* view (it seemed to me) within the
specific circumstances he found himself in the last moments of "Last
Knight," he was choosing to finally and completely turn his back on the
darkness and to take the ultimate leap of faith (both in the sense of the
unknown, and in honoring his final covenant with Natalie). He had made a
committment to free himself of vampirism (long before he met Natalie), and
had made a committment to Natalie to be with her "wherever," and he
couldn't go back (make it that all of this had never happened); he could
only go forward. And "forward," in this context, could not be found in
letting Natalie die (or bringing her across) and "moving on" to the life he
had already been living for *800* years
Nick reminds me of Hamlet, reving himself up to the point of action.
Hamlet's great soliloquy is "to be or not to be," which, in the context of
what he is saying in this scene, is whether he should seek life or death.
But his true greatest struggle, throughout the play, is actually whether he
will *act* or *not act* -- not to merely live or die, but be the motivator
in events surrounding him (the determinor of his own fate) or to just be
someone who stagnates in the backwaters of flowing events. Nick makes a
definite decision about the course of his own fate by the end of this ep.
Whether penultimately a wrong or right decision, I don't believe his choice
was represented to be an act of dispair but an act of faith -- and in
*that,* I see integrity, and his own assertion of individuality.
Portia
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:29:55 -0500
From: Portia 1 <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
>Of course, I don't know what that does to my previous theory about what
>"the cure" would be. But what the heck. Two theories is just twice as much
>to think about. <g>
>Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
Yeah, and considering I've been playing around with about 5 or 6 -- my
brain hurts! "g"
Portia
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 01:26:12 EST
From: KnghtWtch@a.......
Subject: Re: Questions, questions, questions
Hello all,
Another question for another idea.
The daisies Nick gave to Nat...were they white with yellow centers or dark
yellow center with lighter yellow pedals?
Another shirt in progress like my LaCroix shirt.
KnightWitch ;-]=
CaddyWhacker, Die Hard, Ravenette with Enforcement tendencies.
A Unique line of Forever Knight apparel is now available at:
http://hometown.aol.com/knghtwtch/index.html .....and.....
http://home.clear.net.nz/knightraven/pages.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 01:26:51 EST
From: Phoenix348@a.......
Subject: Re: Questions for fanfic
In a message dated 1/29/01 11:17:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mcham_thorne@h....... writes:
<< 1. Could anybody suggest the name/type of a small handgun which could be
used as a murder weapon? (No, I'm not planning on killing anyone! I'd just
like to do better than "She was killed by a single shot from a small gun.")
>>
There are several types that you could use. I would recommend a derringer as
this is just about as small a gun as you can get. They have historically
been used by many assassins as you can conceal one in your hand quite easily.
There are single and double barrel varieties that can fire up to .44 caliber
slugs, effectively making them small cannons. Derringers were also
historically famous as being the choice weapon of ladies as they fit nicely
into a handbag.
<< What kind of car did Schanke drive? I think it was a Chevy
something-or-other.>>
If memory serves, Schanke drove a brown Chevy Celebrity.
Stephen Lansing
Phoenix348@a.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 05:58:30 EST
From: Marel Darby <Frostsaint2@a.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
> And, as for Nick, I don't condone suicide, but his choice of death was
> certainly a grand gesture, in some metaphysical level on the same lines as
> Don Quixote pitting himself against the windmills and fighting the battles
I'm sorry, but I find it hard to accept it as a 'grand gesture' when he lacked
the fortitude/commitment to perform it himself, but put LaCroix through the
pain of killing him. To be literal, it wasn't suicide. The Don Quixote
reference is a good one I think, and helpful to those of us who find this
episode very annoying, since Quixote, however brave and chivalrous, was also deeply
deluded. <g> Nick didn't initiate the events of the final episode, but an
uncharacteristically defeatist Natalie. Throughout the series I thought that
Nick didn't want to die, what Nick always wanted/needed was to be *punished*.
Just my cranky two pennyworth.
Marel
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:23:14 -0500
From: Tim Phillips <Timp@d.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
> But FK
> isn't about death; it's about life. If the only way Nick can "step into
> the daylight" is to die and go off to heaven, that, to me, is not a
> positive message.
According to all the vampires themselves, they are already dead.
Maybe Nicholas' condition can be viewed as a Hell he escaped.
That he condemned himself via his lack of faith and when he had
sufficient faith again in something (Natalie in this case) he was able
to complete his journey and pass forward again into the light.
I understand your frustration with my saying that his "death" is
a positive thing. No one has probably noted it since this isn't a
really common topic, but this is the first I've mentioned Last Knight
without something about it being an Alien Plot. :-) I for one
didn't find the story very uplifting. But, I did find it powerful. I know
of only two other television episodes I've ever seen that has the
same emotional impact. So, by seeing it as positive, I've at least
started to address my "phobia" :-)
Tim
Tim Phillips
timp@d.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:43:43 -0500
From: Portia 1 <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
At 05:58 AM 1/30/01 EST, you wrote:
>Just my cranky two pennyworth.
>Marel
Don't get cranky, Marel! At 1:30 in the morning, it's likely that all of
my typing has resulted in, perhaps, nothing more than a bit of pendantic
pontificating! "g" I will admit that by referencing D. Quioxte, I was
acknowledging some elements of his madness inherent in the
excessiveness/emotionalism of Nick's last scene. Honestly, I wouldn't have
had the show come to the end that it did or have had Natalie and Nick make
the choices they made; certainly I don't like the choices they made, but I
can't help but try to see things from Nick's point of view in that moment
in time. I can't summarily dismiss his possibly valid motivations, nor can
I summarily dismiss them as completely unworthy acts of defeat and dispair,
knowing as I do (to some extent as a viewer) his character and his
professed philosophy (especially as it stood at that moment).
As for his request for LC's assitance at that time, it was not without
precedent -- and such precendent that could possibly help to understand why
LaCroix might have undertaken the act. We have instances of friend helping
friend die, both in the bible and in Roman legend, and there is also the
possible corollary of today's debate over mercy killings. The *choice* to
die was Nick's; the means to die required assitance, for whatever reason
you wish to explore -- fear that he would lose his nerve, fear that it
would be a sin if he did the deed himself, a means to have LaCroix finish
what Nick perceived he started (his death), etc.
I *can't* deny that, from another perspective and from my personal
preference and my own view of suicide, Nick's actions/choices were not
fundamentally "right" or best, I'm just proposing that within *Nick's*
understanding at that moment and with his perception of the situation, he
*was* living up to his convictions and that he was acting in accord with
his own sense of honor and to achieve what he felt he needed, whatever
exactly that might be -- salvation, an end to an existence he could no
longer tolerate, reunion with his love, reparation for his deeds (along the
lines of the punishment you mentioned?), any or all and more of these....
Well, I suppose it's not completely unlikely that by playing devil's
advocate for the debate stance I've taken that I may be identified with and
gain the reputation of that old demon -- I hope not! "g" I just couldn't
help exploring this aspect of the last ep when I felt that it had at least
*some* validity that was perhaps not being aknowledged. As for *why*
LaCroix might have agreed to help Nick committ suicide -- well, that's an
issue for a whole other discussion (wherein I may offer justifications that
gainsay all I've proposed above! 'g" Or wherein I may abstain from comment,
in that I've already shot my wad and blown my poor brain fuse!!).
Portia, honestly not trying to be a pain in the @$$.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:52:02 EST
From: Marel Darby <Frostsaint2@a.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
> If the series had ended with no resolution (ie. a reg ep or, worse, a
> cliffhanger!), I would have been incredibly disturbed and disappointed.
I appreciate that some fans were relieved that the series didn't just peter
out on an anticlimax, but to me a conveniently neat, but psychologically
dishonest ending is not the same as a resolution.
My twopennyworth,
Marel
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 08:45:57 -0500
From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
At 07:52 AM 1/30/2001 -0500, Marel wrote:
>I appreciate that some fans were relieved that the series didn't just peter
>out on an anticlimax, but to me a conveniently neat, but psychologically
>dishonest ending is not the same as a resolution.
I'd have preferred no special concluding ending; that way each of us could
decide for ourselves if Nick ever finds a cure, if Nat is ever brought
across, if Nick returns to the fold, etc. The triumph of the story is the
quest, not the goal, and -- as the wealth of FK fanfic can attest to --
there are many more stories along Nick's journey of self-realization and
self-acceptance.
Brenda Faith Bell webwarren@e.......
Consultant, The Web Warren http://www.webwarren.com/
arachne@w.......
bfbell@d.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:00:49 EST
From: Marel Darby <Frostsaint2@a.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
> I can't summarily dismiss his possibly valid motivations, nor can
> I <snip> knowing as I do (to some extent as a viewer) his character and his
> professed philosophy (especially as it stood at that moment).
You've put your finger on it. Nick has no consistent philosophy to sustain
him, he lurches from emotional crisis to crisis. What he professed at
that moment he could've disdained at another time when he was less
emotional and distracted by guilt and grief.
> As for his request for LC's assitance at that time, it was not without
> precedent -- and such precendent that could possibly help to understand why
> LaCroix might have undertaken the act. We have instances of friend helping
> friend die, both in the bible and in Roman legend,
True, they died to preserve their honour, but I suspect from a Roman
standpoint, Nick's reasons would've seemed shameful and weak.
> The *choice* to
> die was Nick's; the means to die required assitance, for whatever reason
> you wish to explore -- fear that he would lose his nerve, fear that it
> would be a sin if he did the deed himself,
But he didn't mind heaping further sin on LaCroix's head? Hardly the
caring act of someone who, moments earlier, spoke of their friendship.
To my mind, choosing a method of death that needed assistance
demonstated a lack of commitment to the deed. Although he couldn't
admit it to himself--it would seem an act of treachery to Natalie-- perhaps
deep down he wanted LaCroix to find a convincing argument against it. And
LaCroix, normally so psychologically adept, should've understood that you
don't humour someone who's temporarily deranged with grief. To kill him under
these circumstances doesn't demonstrate respect for Nick, but a frightening
degree of callous self-righteousness and lack of common sense that's totally
out of character for his maker.
> <snip>he was acting in accord with his own sense of honor and to achieve
>what he felt he needed, whatever exactly that might be -- salvation, an end
>to an existence he could no longer tolerate, reunion with his love, reparation
>for his deeds (along the lines of the punishment you mentioned?), <snip>
Well, in spite of everything, he could tolerate existence very well up
to that last episode. And I'm not sure how he makes reparation to
humanity by dying. Wouldn't his continued existence, working
to benefit them, have demonstrated more unselfishness?
> Or wherein I may abstain from comment,
> in that I've already shot my wad and blown my poor brain fuse!!).
> Portia, honestly not trying to be a pain in the @$$.
Oh, don't stop. Keep playing. <g>
Marel...who can't help being a pain in the a**
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:09:57 EST
From: Marel Darby <Frostsaint2@a.......>
Subject: Re: Right Place, Right Time
Iwebwarren@e....... writes:
> I'd have preferred no special concluding ending; that way each of us could
> decide for ourselves <snip> The triumph of the story is the
> quest, not the goal, and -- <snip> there are many more stories along
> Nick's journey of self-realization and self-acceptance.
I agree. The last episode would've suited me if it had gone in half-a-dozen
different directions at once...scattering new story lines like grapeshot
to give us all plenty of fuel for fanfic, debate etc. <g>
Marel
------------------------------
End of FORKNI-L Digest - 29 Jan 2001 to 30 Jan 2001 - Special issue (#2001-33)
******************************************************************************
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