FORKNI-L
Digest - 11 Mar 2000 to 12 Mar 2000 (#2000-72)
Sun, 12 Mar 2000
There are 12 messages totalling 756 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Converts and Canonical Gaps (2)
2. fanfic question...how fast can vampires fly??? (3)
3. Nitpicking for some Character Information
4. Final Reminder for the UCC Celebration Weekend
5. nominations (4)
6. Your Daily Vote & FK's Position
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:06:52 -0700
From: Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: Converts and Canonical Gaps
Amy R. Wrote:> what did Nick think, after DKII as after HoD, when he
heard, as he must> have, that the body "went missing"? Or could he not have
heard?
Geez. <Kyer is still stunned by that blazing display of logic so well laid
out by Amy. Gimme a minute to realign my braincell. <thump!> <whirrrr!!> >
Um... could Nick have flown out her body, buried her (to hide the evidence
of LaCroix's vampire bite), and she crawled out unbeknowst to him? (and
probably royally ticked off with him too...)
Grinned,
Kyer
kyer@p.......
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1980 17:24:23 -0800
From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......>
Subject: Re: fanfic question...how fast can vampires fly???
I've been thinking about this too. What do we know? Well, the laws of
gravity and possibly inertia seem to be waived for vampires, but what
about the laws of aerodynamics? If Nick could always go as fast as
necessary, he would have arrived in time to prevent a number of crimes
which he was too late for, so he must have some sort of top speed. I
thought we might get an idea of what speed he can go from "False
Witness", when it's stated he went half the length of a football field in
just over 2 minutes--but on converting the time and distance (75 yards,
for half a Canadian football field, goalpost to goalpost)time to mph, I
find this gives a disappointing speed of 1.3 mph for Nick, and positively
embarasses a certain decathlete. Oops! Now, if Nick went twice as fast as
the world's fastest sprinter (100 metres in just under 10 seconds), that
would give him a speed of 30 mph (50 km/h). Still way too slow for my
taste.
So, who flies without an airplane, I asked myself. Skydivers, that's who.
I found this on the FAQ for the US Parachuting Association's website:
"During the first 9-10 seconds the skydiver accelerates to what is called
terminal velocity. You can alter your body position (decreasing or
increasing surface area) to slow or speed up descent and experienced
skydivers can reach fall rates over 200mph and there are records of
speeds over 300mph (490km). However, in a standard belly-to-earth
position used in student training and most skydiving, you will typically
fall at a rate of anywhere between 100-140mph (180-220km)."
So a novice vampire might have a top speed of about 120 mph (200 km/h),
and an experienced vampire, who knows how to avoid the tumbling and
buffeting that can happen at higher speeds by assuming the proper body
position, could potentially reach the record of 300 mph (490 km/h).
Thanks for the question--this was fun!
Your humble & obedient servant,
Ligeia
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:27:31 -0500
From: Amanda R Cleveland <arclevel@m.......>
Subject: Re: fanfic question...how fast can vampires fly???
>[In) "False Witness", when it's stated he went . . . [I]
>find this gives a disappointing speed of 1.3 mph for Nick, and positively
>embarasses a certain decathlete. Oops!
My theory on this is that Nick, knowing that his speed might be called into
question, told the prosecutors that he left at a point much earlier in
their transcripts than he did. In other words, he the prosecutor was
measuring that he left his car at the first possible hint of trouble, when
he really left it about the time that we *see* him leave it--seconds before
the shooting. As for the rather pitiful decathalete, he had to run the
actual route Nick *claimed* to go, which included a ten foot fence,
hallways, and at least one flight of stairs. (But you're right, that's
still pretty slow.) Of course, this still begs the question, why did no
one ever notice the rather large broken window in the warehouse? It's not
the type of thing commonly overlooked at crime scenes, one would at least
hope. :-)
Amanda
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:56:27 -0700
From: Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: fanfic question...how fast can vampires fly???
I think the laws of cause and effect may apply to that question.
The speed of a vampire is in direct proportion to exactly which vampire is
flying after them---and in what mood that vampire is in.
A vampire being chased by an angry, cow-juice bespattered LaCroix, fer
instance, will travel at much faster speeds (and risk much higher altitudes)
than---oh,..say---a male vampire being chased by a smiling Janette in a
slinky nightgown.
Discuss?
Discuss(ted)?
Grins, :)=
Kyer, Loyal Squirette to the Knight de Brabant; Knight de Soir, CotK, One of
The Hungry, Le Miz, Immortal Beloved (yet flexible), Weird Knight, Queen O'
deTypos, Paranoid-Schitzoid Knightie with Multi-Personalities who's having a
blast and an angstfest at one and the same time! kyer@p.......
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:32:44 -0800
From: Steve Hood <nexus_dragon@y.......>
Subject: Nitpicking for some Character Information
Greetings everyone- ;-)
I'm nitpicking for Janette's background on what we
know- cira the year she was brought across, the
brothel she was escaping from when LaCroix brought her
across, that guy who ran the brothel (who we saw
briefly), any personal (original) family history, and
most definitely, the region (country & city) she
originally lived in and came from.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
And if there are any historians here who know about
that era, could you fill me in on the conditions of
European society at that point?
Thanks in advance-
-Steve Hood
=====
"Dragons never die. They just get more silly every day!"
-that insane guy, Steve, yes, I think his name is
"Pesky things, dragons are.
Somehow I just didn't see it coming
What did I miss?????"
-nexus_dragon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:49:32 -0500
From: Marg Yamanaka <mytoronto@h.......>
Subject: Final Reminder for the UCC Celebration Weekend
Have you made reservations for The Upper Canada Celebration yet?
There's still time ...
We would like to remind everyone that our host hotel will not permit us
to hold the block of rooms past March 19th. Anyone hesitating to book
due to Tucson can **reserve a room before the 19th with the option to
cancel if necessary.
**Please verify the hotel's cancellation policy when you call as the room
becomes your responsibility once booked.
UCC will accept applications for the weekend until May 1st, 2000.
For details visit the UCC Celebration page at:
http://members.home.net/caddywhack/UCCcon/celebration.htm
--
Marg, in Toronto, the City of the Knight <mytoronto@h.......>
Please visit the Upper Canada Connection -
A Canadian Tribute to Geraint Wyn Davies:
http://members.home.net/gwducc/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:17:48 EST
From: Iamatchr2@a.......
Subject: Re: nominations
Hi,
I asked this directly to Mel, and on another list. But, No definitive answer,
so I shall ask in hopes of someone in the know responding.
Can we nominate a story we have read in a zine? I have read some great ones,
and have yet to see them posted on ficldi. Some are posted only on their
sites, so what exactly are the rules for nominating a story?
Thank you,
Rosemary
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:51:35 +0100
From: Llarian <manulanger@t.......>
Subject: Re: nominations
I answered this by forwarding Mel's original notice.
Llarian
mailto:manulanger@t.......
Join the SciFi-Crossover-Webring at:
http://home.tronet.de/manulanger/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 11:27:51 -0600
From: Kristin Harris <kris1228@s.......>
Subject: Your Daily Vote & FK's Position
Hi!
This is just a reminder for you to add your daily vote on the Global 100
Charts.
To vote go here: http://www.global100.com/item.asp?Item=51259
We could really use the help of those wo have never voted before.
Currently it is in the #5 position unofficially!(this is what needs
to increase so it will officially). Keep it up! That's great!
Officially it is in the #7 position.
Kristin
P.S. Be sure to also add your name to this post if you have not already. It
will be sent by Susan Field to TPTB, so please add your comments:
http://www.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/1686
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 11:58:07 -0500
From: FK Awards <fkawards@f.......>
Subject: Re: nominations
Sorry, I've been a bit busy lately categorizing nominated stories
and missed your question. Since probably others want to know
the answer to this question...
At 08:17 AM 3/12/2000 -0500, Rosemary wrote:
>Can we nominate a story we have read in a zine? I have read some great ones,
>and have yet to see them posted on ficldi. Some are posted only on their
>sites, so what exactly are the rules for nominating a story?
Stories from a fanzine, unless they have been posted to a list
or made available on a website, unfortunately are not eligible for
nomination in the Awards.
If the story from a zine is later posted to a mailing list, or put
on a website, then it is eligible to be nominated.
The rules covering this are in the FK Fan Fiction Awards FAQ
at http://www.fkfanfic.com/awards/awardsfaq.htm
Here's the part regarding this from the FAQ:
* * * * *
What stories can be nominated?
Any complete Forever Knight story, poem, or filk that is or
has been available to the general public in an electronic form.
Definition of AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC - it
was posted to the FKFIC-L or any other electronic list or
is/was archived on an FTP site or a website. It does not
have to be currently available to be NOMINATED, but this
is highly suggested. It should be made available online if
the story makes the final ballot, to allow the story to be
reviewed and read by those voting.
For more details on nominations and more, check out the
FAQ on the Awards website.
As always, and hopefully more promptly responded to, email
any additional questions not answered in the FAQ to me.
Thanks,
Mel
mailto:fkawards@f.......
1999 Forever Knight Fan Fiction Awards
http://www.fkfanfic.com/awards/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:43:30 +0100
From: Llarian <manulanger@t.......>
Subject: Re: nominations
Hi Rosemary,
here's trying again to send you Mel's message
on the awards. :)
Hugs,
Llarian
mailto:manulanger@t.......
Join the SciFi-Crossover-Webring at:
http://home.tronet.de/manulanger/index.html
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: <Iamatchr2@a.......>
An: <FORKNI-L@l.......>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. März 2000 14:17
Betreff: Re: nominations
> Hi,
> I asked this directly to Mel, and on another list. But, No definitive answer,
> so I shall ask in hopes of someone in the know responding.
> Can we nominate a story we have read in a zine? I have read some great ones,
> and have yet to see them posted on ficldi. Some are posted only on their
> sites, so what exactly are the rules for nominating a story?
> Thank you,
> Rosemary
>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:09:23 -0500
Reply-To: FK Awards <fkawards@f.......>
Sender: Forever Knight TV show stories <FKFIC-L@l.......>
From: FK Awards <fkawards@f.......>
Subject: The 1999 Forever Knight Fan Fiction Awards
To: FKFIC-L@l.......
Feel free to pass this along to any and all concerned:
Thanks,
Mel Moser
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Announcing the 1999 FK Fan Fiction Awards
now being hosted at:
( http://www.fkfanfic.com/awards/ )
This information and more can be found in the FK Fan Fiction
Awards FAQ at http://www.fkfanfic.com/awards/awardsfaq.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Overview:
The 1999 FK Fan Fiction Awards have been moved to www.fkfanfic.com
and are now being handled by Mel Moser, with the gracious permission
of Susan Garrett. Most of the rules and procedures from previous FK
Fan Fiction Awards are the same for the 1999 FK Fan Fiction Awards,
and much of the information, including emails, rules & procedures, etc.
are from Susan's original webpages and emails.
Many thanks to Susan Garrett for managing the Awards over the
past couple of years.
And now...
The FK Fan Fiction Awards Mini-FAQ
******************************************************
The Process:
Everyone wishing to nominate/vote will be need to apply for and will
be assigned a Voter Id. The Voter Id Application Form can be
found at http://www.fkfanfic.com/awards/voteidmail.htm
Nominations will be accepted for a voting ballot. You will be able to
nominate as many items as you would like, 1 nomination per item, please.
(This means that you can nominate twenty different stories NOT the same
story twenty times.)
After the nominating deadline, all nominations will be collected and
categories and divisions assigned. The authors of the top six entries in
each division will be contacted and asked if they wish to participate in
the awards. Authors wishing to remain on the ballot MUST reply before the
preliminary ballot deadline--if an author does not apply, they will be
removed from the ballot. Any author who wishes a work to be removed from
the ballot should send an e-mail requesting its removal. Only authors
wishing to remain on the ballot will have their works appear on the final
voting ballot.
NOTE--Any work that appears on the final ballot MUST be available for the
voting public to read and review. This means that the author will be
requested to allow either a link to the nominated work or a copy of the
nominated work to be available from the voting website. This will allow
voters to read all of the works nominated on the final ballot and make an
informed decision. After the results have been awarded, individual items
and links will be removed as per the author's request. NO WORK WILL BE
INCLUDED ON THE FINAL BALLOT IF IT CANNOT BE LINKED TO OR
HOUSED AT THE VOTING WEBSITE DURING THE VOTING PERIOD.
The final voting ballot will be available on the voting web page and will
also be posted to ForKni-L (with the listowner's permission). Wide
dissemination of the ballot AND the rules will be encouraged. Votes will be
placed for one nominee in each category during a designated period. Awards
will be given to the nominee with the most votes in their category and
division--ties will be possible and will be honored as such.
******************************************************
Categories for Awards:
This year's Awards will be similar to previous Awards, with categories
based on Story Word Count, Story Content (NonAdult, Adult 1, Adult 2),
and 4 Special Categories, all within the timeframes of 1999 and Historic.
Awards will be given for the following categories for 1999 and Historic
divisions, under three story types (NonAdult, Adult 1 (Some Adult) and
Adult 2 (All Adult):
* Vignette
* Short Story
* Novelette
* Novella
* Novel
* Filk
* Poem
For more information regarding categories, including word counts for
Vignette, Short Story, etc., check out the Categories section on the
Awards FAQ: http://www.fkfanfic.com/awards/awardsfaq.htm
This year, 1999, adds four special categories for additional FK Fan
Fiction-related awards. Awards for both stories posted in 1999 and
Historic time-frames allowing for eight additional Awards this year.
Nominated stories will be categorized into their appropriate
categories following the close of the nomination period.
These special categories are: Favorite Quote from an Original Story,
Favorite Original Character, Favorite Crossover Story, and Favorite
Challenge Story.
******************************************************
What can be nominated?
Any complete Forever Knight story, poem, or filk that is complete and
has been available to the general public in an electronic form prior to
January 1, 2000.
* Definition of AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC--it was posted to the
FKFIC-L list or any other electronic list or is/was archived on an FTP site
or a website. It does not have to be currently available to be NOMINATED.
* Definition of ELECTRONIC FORM--readable on line from a computer
terminal, downloadable to a computer, or transferrable by diskette
* Definition of COMPLETE--the nominated item must have been posted in
its entirety by December 31, 1999.
Additionally, four special categories allow for eight additional awards
for these items also available prior to January 1, 2000 in both the 1999
and Historic Categories: Favorite Quote from an Original Story ,
Favorite Original Character, Favorite Crossover Story, and Favorite
Challenge Story.
******************************************************
Who can nominate and/or vote?
Anyone who has read Forever Knight Fan Fiction and applies and
receives a Voter Id through the online Voter Id application process (or
through email from fkawards@f....... for those without web access)
******************************************************
When can I nominate/vote?
You can apply for your Voter Id starting Sunday, February 20, 2000.
Upon receipt of your Voter Id, you can then begin to nominate stories.
Additional dates in the process will be listed on the Awards FAQ and
on the main Awards webpage.
Dates for the Awards are subject to change depending on Real Life of
Mel Moser. Dates of each phase of the Awards process will be posted
on the main Awards webpage ( http://www.fkfanfic.com/awards/ ) and
posted to various FK Mailing Lists.
******************************************************
How can I nominate/vote if I don't have web access?
Contact fkawards@f....... for participating in the Awards process
via email.
******************************************************
Comments and questions
These fan fiction awards are in no way 'official'. If another list or group
would like to initiate their own FK fan fiction awards, I will heartily
endorse and support their efforts.
If you have any questions about these 1999 FK Fan Fiction awards,
please review the full FAQ at http://www.fkfanfic.com/awards/awardsfaq.htm
or email me at fkawards@f.......
mailto:fkawards@f.......
1999 Forever Knight Fan Fiction Awards
http://www.fkfanfic.com/awards/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:37:17 -0500
From: Sandra Gray <sandragray@r.......>
Subject: Re: Converts and Canonical Gaps
Amy wrote (Hi, Amy!):
> The nuances of "convert" are infinitely more powerful than those
>of "fledgling," what with its implications of choice and the exercise of
>free will.
And just when I thought everything that could be said about FK
had been said, Amy makes this interesting observation. It's an
observation that fits well with Near Death, where in the FB, Nick,
on the edge of dying, is given a "choice" of going into the light or
returning to LC and becoming a vampire. If it is truly a choice,
then that, imo, opens up for debate again whether the FK vampire
should be considered just an "ultimate predator" (like any lion
following its nature in obtaining food) or a "murderer" of humans
since he or she has made what amounts to a moral choice to become
what he or she is. My opinion is that they are murderers (when
they choose to kill humans for food).
>A few other stories and discussions, however, have employed Alexandra as an
>example with which to beat Nick for supposedly "poor vampire senses." (And
>if that's your goal, FM's great fodder! As is the initially-unnoticed
>vampire technician in UTV.)
I disagree with both of these being examples of Nick having "poor
vampire senses." Since Nick thought Alexandra was a ghost and
appeared to be *surprised* to see her in Toronto, that suggests
to me that Alexandra had not previously tried to get to Nick.
So Nick could have 1) been unfamiliar with her vampiric
"signature" and 2) not have believed it even if he sensed she
was a vampire because, as far as he knew, she was dead. We could
consider #2 has merit since Nick experienced a similar (if reverse)
reaction to Janette's reappearance in Human Factor. He didn't
expect Janette to be mortal so didn't believe his senses (hey,
that's my cheesy explanation :) ). Of course there might also
be another explanation for why he didn't sense that Janette was
mortal: she never *was* mortal.
As for the vampire technician in UTV, I don't remember us seeing
him with Nick before the guy ratted to the Enforcers about the
reporter's filming of Nick in flight. Nick did tell Tawny when
he heard that she'd told the technician about the tape that the
guy was a vampire. So I think Nick knew, but just didn't
consider that vampire a threat. I think Nick thought he could
handle Tawny himself before any other vampire was the wiser.
>"poorly-developed master-convert sense," a theory which is then usually
>carried up to LK, where it justifies a reading in which Natalie has come
>across, but Nick just doesn't realize it.
I think this might also be more simply attributable to Nick
being so overcome by grief at having "killed" her that he
just wouldn't have noticed if she'd come across.
>In defense of the "Alexandra as Nick's get" argument, there's the fact that
>she clearly blames him, not Lacroix, for her situation. Still, Lacroix's
>had almost six-hundred years to convince her of that, and his persuasive
>powers are formidable.
That LC would have convinced her to blame Nick is not something
I've ever considered, but the idea has validity, given what we
have been shown of LC's character. However, it's also possible
that Alexandra might have blamed Nick for getting her in such
a "compromising" (and I don't mean that sexually) position in
the first place: the "I wouldn't have been brought across if I
hadn't been bitten by you in the first place." idea ("If I
hadn't gotten involved with one vampire, his vampire buddy
might not have brought me over.")
What's interesting to me about Alexandra is that she never
approached Nick for vengeance until LC was out of the picture
(supposedly dead). This could imply that LC had hidden her
existence from Nick and compelled her to stay away from Nick
for reasons known only to him. Of course it's also possible
that LC gave Alexandra only the most rudimentary of training
and then deserted her and it just took her until the present
day to finally track Nick down. :) I could see LC even lying
to Alexandra and telling her that Nick brought her over and
then deserted her.
>In short, I believe fanfic consensus leans a bit toward "only Lacroix is
>Alexandra's maker," while canon admittedly reserves room for both
>interpretations.
I don't think a firm case of canon reserving room for both
interpretations can be made. We only have Alexandra's word
that Nick is to blame for what she is. I have already given
some scenarios for why her view of the situation might be
mistaken. Since we see flashbacks of who really brought
Alexandra over, I think that shows that she knows who actually
brought her over. She may be lying to herself in blaming Nick
or she could have just figured she'd have a better shot at
destroying Nick than destroying LC.
>If this supposition were paired with the situation of a convert linked to
>both her drainer and one who gave her blood, we would get the conclusion
>that the drainer has little to no link to the new fledgling, while the one
>who gave blood has a strong to overwhelming link.
That's the way I think it is. Unless the convert siblings
maintain a close relationship of their own (as Nick and
Janette did).
>On the other hand, the theory that it's the draining which locks in
>allegiance persists. So many FK vampires come across without blood
>exchanges, this position holds, that draining must be the primary and
>enduring forger of the bond.
But do we really know how strong a bond exists between those
not given blood by the vampire who brings them over? I can
think of one clear example where there does not appear to be
*any* bond between vampire master and convert--Jack the Ripper
from Bad Blood. There's no indication that LC had any contact
with Jack over the years. Considering LC wanted Nick to kill
Jack so there would be no danger of him coming over, I don't
see LC wanting to train Jack. Jack was one of those brought
over accidentally, so it may be possible that such accidental
converts have little or no connection with their masters and
thus don't form any bond with them.
>Blood exchange seems so little
>necessary for coming across that I posit Alexandra would eventually have
>come over on her own as Nick's progeny, had Lacroix not interfered.
I think she would have died. It seems to me that there is
some sort of threshold of blood loss beyond which the ability
to come across is impossible. If there wasn't, *everyone*
who died from a vampire's bite would become vampires. We
have seen plenty of instances of the vampires attacking people
and killing them with no added breaking of the neck or staking
or other insurance that the person will not come across so
coming across by accident must not be that common or we'd see
the vampires consistently making sure it wouldn't happen. Of
course that converts aren't created from every bite lends
more credence to the idea that there is an element of *choice*
involved in someone coming across.
>Indeed -- what if he interfered precisely to prevent that, to prevent Nick
>from acquiring a convert at that time?
That's an intriguing idea. We've seen how jealous LC can be
of Nick showing attention to others (which he'd have to do if
he had a convert to train).
>If for no other
>reason than it was dark inside, where Alyce was, and light outside under
>the street-lamp, where they were.
I remember Alyce being *outside* the window and Nick, Nat and
Schanke in the museum. But otherwise I agree with you. I don't
think he saw her.
>so
>what did Nick think, after DKII as after HoD, when he heard, as he must
>have, that the body "went missing"? Or could he not have heard?
That depends on how long it took Alyce and Ellen to come back
to life. I don't know that we've ever seen a consistent view
of how long it takes someone to come across. In some eps it
seems instantaneous. Yet we see Alexandra laid out for burial
in the FB. Nick had time to have a Near Death experience before
coming back. It might be possible that Alyce didn't come back
to life until after she was taken to a funeral home. Of course
we saw Ellen's toe twitch in the morgue, so she might well have
disappeared from there.
I think Nat would have told Nick if either of them went missing
from the morgue and Nick would have realized what had happened
to them. Nick isn't stupid.
As someone with a more "scientific" view of FK vampirism, I
postulate that it could be the level of whatever makes a
person a vampire being introduced into the person that makes
that person a vampire. We don't see Nick come back to LC
until after LC gives him some of his own blood. This scenario
doesn't necessarily remove choice, since the vampire could
choose to give the human a choice in the matter. Or God (or
whatever higher power) could intervene and give the human a
choice to die or be made a vampire.
--Sandra Gray, forever Knightie
--sandragray@r.......
------------------------------
End of FORKNI-L Digest - 11 Mar 2000 to 12 Mar 2000 (#2000-72)
**************************************************************
Knight graphics and parchment background created by Melissa Snell and may be found at http://historymedren.about.com/
